Sustainable, livestock systems and global food security

[00:00:02] Speaker A: Hello, everyone, and welcome to season two of three, Prong podcast. We will still carry on our tradition of the good, the bad and the ugly, but I think this time around we'll be offering our guests, when we do have one, to pick one and then one of us will sit it out. Yeah. Just to get the other guests involved. Today's guest is a very, very knowledgeable person and I'll do a little intro and I think he can definitely talk a bit more about what he's done as we go along. His name is Professor Michael Lee. He looking at the list here, Michael, I don't think I would do it justice. I'll let you do the bits of introducing yourself when we get to you, but we'll go for the good, bad and ugly first out of you two. Who, who doesn't have anything on top of their mind? Just thinking now, I've got. [00:01:07] Speaker B: I've got a good. [00:01:08] Speaker A: Yeah. How about you? Actually, Chris has definitely got a good. You definitely have a good. Yeah, I reckon Chris is good is proper. [00:01:19] Speaker B: You don't know what my good is yet. [00:01:22] Speaker C: Unless it's you've. [00:01:23] Speaker D: You've bought goats since the end of series one. I'm having the good man. [00:01:27] Speaker B: No, but I've done something. One better than buy goats. [00:01:31] Speaker A: Right, we can have two goods then. And then, Michael, what have you got a good about it or an ugly? [00:01:36] Speaker C: Of course. [00:01:38] Speaker B: Well, three goods then. That's a good way to start. [00:01:41] Speaker C: Yeah, okay. [00:01:41] Speaker D: Yeah, let's start season two on a positive note. [00:01:45] Speaker B: Yes. [00:01:45] Speaker A: Like. Okay, yeah, I'll take four goods then. I won't sit down if everyone's in a good. Yeah, you go first, Michael. [00:01:54] Speaker C: So. Yeah, well, my good is that, you know, this, this podcast is all about the potentials and the challenges associated with that agricultural systems, particularly livestock. And the good is that clearly livestock have critical roles to play for global food security. There's, you know, there's many different aspects for why that is and how we need to support livestock as part of the circular food system. Of course, the bad is that there's not enough people who fully realize that and the potential that they have in delivering to nutritional needs. [00:02:30] Speaker A: That's a hell of a start there. [00:02:34] Speaker C: Even before I've introduced myself. Flavian, I've landed that one for you. [00:02:38] Speaker A: Yeah, I was going to say setting. [00:02:40] Speaker B: The bar really high. [00:02:42] Speaker A: Yeah, I think. Yeah. Chris, you should go last because yours is. Yeah. Special. To be fair, I'll go with. I had my first hog roast this week. Got another one on Sunday, so it's hog roast Season. And yeah, we're, we're doing pretty good so far. So that. Yeah, that's my good at the moment, Chris. Neil. [00:03:03] Speaker B: Sorry, my good is that I brought a tractor. Ow. I can like call myself a farmer because I brought a tractor. Have you got a tractor, Flav? [00:03:14] Speaker A: Not yet, no. [00:03:15] Speaker B: You say not farmer then. [00:03:20] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:03:20] Speaker B: I don't know what you're doing on here, Fluff, because you haven't got a tractor. A couple of goats and a pig, you know, and all of a sudden you're everywhere. [00:03:26] Speaker A: What tractor is it? [00:03:27] Speaker B: I brought a 70 year old little gray Fergie. [00:03:31] Speaker A: What, what horsepower does he have? Or is it donkeys? [00:03:34] Speaker B: Oh, it's 26, it's all there. I think some of them might have gone now, might be down to about 20, but it's 70 years old. [00:03:42] Speaker D: That's quite similar to you then, Neil. [00:03:45] Speaker B: So I've had a midwife crisis. Brought tractor, a little one seater sports car as I like to call it. Take it out. Took me to the pub the other day. Brilliant. [00:03:54] Speaker C: Fantastic. I think, I think I might need to reset my goods if this is the level that we're going to. Yeah. [00:04:04] Speaker D: And my good this week? Well, it's actually last week, but I got approved for a grant for an on farm vending machine. So, yeah, something I've been looking at for quite a while and it's one of those things. It's, it's quite a big capital investment and you look at it and you think, okay, is it, is it a bit of a risk? Local consumers aren't used to sort of vending machines but I was lucky enough to, to get a 40 grant on it from my local council here. And really it's just good that actual projects like this by farmers are getting approved and actually projects that are needed and it's very hard for farmers to be able to create their own product and sell it in retail shops because retailers obviously need to make a margin for their overheads and stuff in the, in the different retail units. But this very much is going to be straight to consumer my own produce and other local farmers produce. And again, it just shows that, yeah, sometimes as farmers we can think that grant applications are a bit overwhelming and you sort of can't be bothered with all the red tape. But luckily again, if you do your research, I managed to get a 500 pound grant. Cumbria Local enterprise that actually almost paid for a professional to help me with the full application. So really the good is, is just, is just the opportunities are out there and I'd say That to everybody, it's just making sure you look into them and seeing what support is there and taking advantage of it. [00:05:52] Speaker A: Man, that's amazing. I went, I think I went to my first unmanned and human vending machine spot on my way back from the abattoir in Wiltshire and it's just like the business model, pretty similar to what you're thinking, Chris. They're dairy farmers. They've got like a milkshake area in the middle that people get milk and mix their own flavors. They've got ice cream there which comes from a relative of theirs. [00:06:22] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:06:22] Speaker A: They've got the vending machines that sell local produce like cakes or from other people. They've got a dog walking park and they sell dog ice cream. So there's someone, you can't walk your dog, you can't buy your dog ice cream or I find some ice cream as well. And you just think it's. Yeah, I'd love it to be in a situation where at least in every, every, every other village there is one of them, to just keep people as local and sort of encourage our community and improve viability of small businesses, I'd say. [00:06:54] Speaker D: Yeah, yeah. And these, the dog walking fields are a great idea because obviously we have a lot of issues with sort of right to roam and people not sticking to footpaths. Well, surely this is a perfect resolution for that. It's a self contained field where people don't have to worry about sort of accidents with other dogs and people, especially if they've got sort of larger dogs or younger dogs, which can just be a bit daft. And then it's also, yeah. Utilizing sort of land that might not. [00:07:27] Speaker A: Be profitable for farmers. [00:07:28] Speaker D: So it's a win, win. [00:07:30] Speaker C: That's a great outcome, Chris. You know, that entrepreneurial spirit is exactly what, what we need. You know, there are some challenges out there now seeing where those opportunities are. At Harper as well, we are now looking at a vending machine to convert some more products from Future Farm, which is, which is our farm University, away from commodity to product production. We've got so many students on campus, you know, who doesn't want a milkshake, especially if it's straight from the vending machine. It's a great suggestion. Yeah, yeah. [00:08:06] Speaker A: So, Michael, like I said earlier, I won't, I won't list your accolades myself. I think it would definitely be almost like a whole podcast in doing that, but I just sort of briefly let the listeners know that you've focused your career on sustainable livestock systems and sort of global food security And I think in the way society is now and the world is now, like I was at an event yesterday, Future Countryside. There's a lot of talk about food security in the uk, aside from even global. And like you said at the start, livestock is almost being demonized in some circles and being used as a weapon to move away from farming and save the planet. And I think livestock could be used alongside saving a planet and sort of having sustainable businesses and viable businesses. So, yeah, I think I'll pass the button on to you to enlighten us and educate us. [00:09:14] Speaker C: Yeah, no, thanks, Claudine. And really thanks to everyone for the invitation, as you say, you know, I'm Michael Lee, I'm Deputy Vice Chancellor Harper Adams. My research background really started off in nutritional biochemistry, which is focusing on the role of animal source foods and human health. So really thinking about, well, what level of animal source food consumption should deliver human health. And of course it's always balances over consumption and under consumption. And that's clear. And this was very timely because it was at the time of the Great White Line that we kept talking about because everyone was saying that metabolic syndrome is driven by overconsumption of animal fats. But of course we found out metabolic syndrome was overconsumption of sugars predominantly and ultra processing, and it wasn't due to overconsumption to that degree of animal source products directly. So I did a lot of work understanding the value of animal proteins, micronutrients, B12, and how they complement plants on the plant as part of a balanced diet. Animal sourced foods are very different in their nutrient profiles. To eat them alongside plants gives you that perfect balance. And then my career moved on more onto the negative externalities of Greenland livestock. So I was looking then more of emissions, greenhouse gas emissions, methane, nitrous oxide emissions, phosphorus pollution, and thinking, well, where that balance is, where's the balance between the role that livestock in human and planetary health? And I think we've been given an awful lot of information, some sort of very skewed and unbalanced information, which states actually the role of planetary health and human health could be a world without livestock. That's critically not the case. As I said in my good. It's very clear from a human nutritional point of view, we need animal source foods collectively as a balance across a population. Now, that's not to demonize vegans who make a decision not to eat animal sourced foods, but they need to supplement their diet. You know, it's clear. And if you think about a global population, not everybody can supplement their diets that level or has the knowledge of what they need to supplement or have the access to the hollands and barracks of this world that can give them the supplements. And, and so therefore an omnivorous diet is critical for the future sustainability of human health. Well, what about Planet Health? We keep hearing about ruminant livestock being the devil incarnate, particularly when it comes to methane. But if you think about the nutrients that they provided and the fact how they can sit within a circular food system, I. E. Using lamb not suitable for growing crops or land stroke, using byproducts from the food system to produce high quality nutrition. If you think of how we're going to feed a global population, removing a key part of nutrients that can produce food with no elbow land or little elbow land or using byproducts from the food system, you can't remove that key component within the sustainable food system and that is lifestyle. They are absolutely critical to. To a sustainable future. But Flavian, as I said. Sorry Chris, come in. [00:12:41] Speaker D: No, I said yeah, very well, couldn't agree more. So obviously you've got a lot of knowledge in this subject and obviously working for Harper Adams, is there anything you can do to educate some of the other universities like I think was it Oxford went vegan for a while and others. What can you do as an agricultural university to help educate some of these other guys in the same way? Because that's probably going to be a trend that we might see increase. [00:13:17] Speaker C: Thank you, Chris. You know, in Harper is a distinctive and specialist university and we know this field extremely well. We know agriculture and we need to be and put our foot forward, say when policy or the BBC are making captions around the future of agriculture, that they're picking the phone up to talk to colleagues and academics who can really know this area. I think there's been an awful lot of naivety within the university sector in terms of simple win wins. So for example, a university that wants to reduce its carbon footprint of its canteen, well, have a look at the product which in terms of a global average has the highest carbon footprint. Eric Lugan have that narrative associated it. We're doing our bit for carbon footprint but of course not thinking about wider sustainability. Of course sustainability isn't just carbon but rural communities. It's about circularity, it's about land use efficiency of which livestock had huge levers. So what have we done, Chris? Good challenge. Exactly that. So that there is what we call the UK universities climate, which is made of all universities talking about how they action on climate Change. The vast metallic narrative, rightly, is around fossil fuels and energy and transportation, but there is a view about agri food. While we put our names forward and we are now key members of that group, I chair the Net Zero group and readdressing some of that narrative associated with the role that diets play. And one of the key messages I had with one of these key universities that you may have just mentioned, that we're following a narrative of carbon footprint and carbon blame associated with Greenland livestock. I'm saying here you are in a city university putting two fingers up at the rural community for your carbon and you're not understanding the system. And actually in terms of greenhouse gases, fossil fuels, transportation, that's where the eye of mortal should be focus. Of course, that's not to say that there's not. That there's not things that can't be food in agri food. Of course there is. We know this. And farmers are improving all the time and looking at efficiency and how they can reduce carbon, but it's got to be balanced. [00:15:38] Speaker B: So going back to what you said earlier and you were talking about the university, and the easy fix is to say, right, we'll take out meat, because there's a high, you know, footprint to that. [00:15:50] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:15:51] Speaker B: Space, like you said then, on a worldwide thing. So that's predominantly based on stuff that's going on in the States or South America and how they produce their beef, which is completely different to how we produce our beef here. There is no, There is no between the two. And it's almost like the research needs to be. Actually, this is how UK agriculture produces our. Our food and our beef and our meat and our lamb, you know, which is predominantly grass fed and all the benefits that that has, which, you know, are there. But it's like getting that message across, isn't it, that that's the thing to say, forget about what America's doing. Actually, look what we're doing here. [00:16:33] Speaker C: Yeah, totally, Neil, and you've obviously heard me speak before. Exactly. This is what are the vessels that is critical, the key reasons why ruminant livestock could be in the bad press. Exactly. As you said. First of all, we use global averages. So when they're looking at the carbon dioxide equivalents, which is heat and warming potential that they use, they say the global average of beef is what, 50 kg of carbon dioxide equivalent per kg of product. Very high. That's a global average and that takes into account all the countries and different levels of beef production. In the UK, the average is around 18. That's a significant from 50. And that's just the average. For example, here at Harper Adams, I know that we can reach beef at 5-6 kg of carbon dioxide equivalent. And also the key point as well, Neil, that's often forgetting, and we really need to get this message across is when they throw figures out like that, they talk about gross emissions, so they're only talking about the emissions from the animal. What they're not talking about is what the farmer is doing to offset those emissions. So they don't take into account soil, they don't take into account hedgerow, they don't count. And taking grassland or herbage lays or trees on the farm, all these times, these are taking in carbon. So what we need to talk about when we're talking about these emissions, of course, is net emissions. So the emissions from the animal minus what the farmer is removing from the system or her system. And that's exactly where we should be. And then I've seen that, I don't know if you've heard and you should get him on the podcast because you're loving Professor John Gilliland. He's at Queen's University Belfast. And we've also just employed Camille Harper to do some work with us. He did a project in Northern Ireland called Ark Zero that showed some Northern Irish wheat farmers are already net zero if you then balance out the emissions against this carbon removal. So then if you're looking at a label or using the BBC slide slider, which drives me mad in terms of global averages, you can actually put it the other side of soya, because beef is net zero on that particular situation. So there's loads of things which will improve. And of course, farmers are looking to improve all the time in terms of efficiency. Also, we need to remember, as I said, the ability of farm to remove carbon, not just for the animal community. [00:19:10] Speaker B: A lot of that just comes down to education, doesn't it? I don't mean like, you know, because farmers are doing a good job of producing a really sustainable product and they have done for, you know, for a long, long time. And, you know, we're in a bit of a thing at the moment where we seem to be going a bit of a full circle, not so say, to regenerative farming, but that was what's happening. But where people are actually looking now at protecting their soil, you know, even if you look at it from a, you know, from an arable point of view where, you know, you've got farms where, you know, I work in the dairy sector, so it's Quite common now where you've got maize ground that's going back into maize. So have some oats chucked over it just to protect the soil there. Keep the nitrogen, keep everything in that soil. Which makes perfect sense. [00:19:52] Speaker C: Sense. [00:19:52] Speaker B: Because if you've got all this bare soil through the winter, getting a huge amount of leaching, all this stuff is happening. Farmers are doing this because, you know, these practices make money effectively, you know, that's, that's what drives it because you can get a healthier crop, you can have healthier soil, you can do all these things. But again, it just comes down to, you know, there isn't enough education of not. So just say the public, but you know, well, it is the public of what actually is going on. And that's something that needs to change because we're doing a really good job of doing all the stuff that we do. What we actually need to do is educate people. [00:20:27] Speaker C: Yeah. And as part of Harper Adam School of Sustainable Food and Farming, there's multiple components of that and I'm sure you're aware of this initiative, it was set up to support the agri food, the farmer and the supply chain to move towards that tradition of sustainable farming. And it's based on four pillars. Pillar one, as you might, is based on new talent, Neil, and is about engaging with the public to get those messages across and understood. And critically, school children, because there's too many children who don't understand, I. E. How sexy it is and how exciting it is, can be part of an agri food system and producing food to feed people and protect the environment, because that's what farmers do. Because as you rightly said, nutrient loss from your farm is lost money. You want nutrients into food, not nutrients into the air and water. And any person who thinks naively that a farmer is happy to pollute is crazy because you look at a bad business person, because they want those nutrients in the food, not in water. But the school of state of food and farmers doing a phenomenal job engaging with schools, particularly schools in urban communities. You probably saw some country file engaging with schools in London and many of those children have never being on a farm or understood where food was produced. And that does two things. First of all, it sees an opportunity for them as a future in agri food, which we need. We need the best entrepreneurs and the best brains driving future food systems to feed the global population without destroying the planet. That's, that's critical. But you know, also it educates them when they sometimes get some detritus off social media. Telling them a particular story, but because they have no background information or understanding of it, they accept it. Whereas actually with some background information they won't accept it. And that's where we need to be. We do need to obscure. [00:22:23] Speaker A: I've got a question, I'd like to hear your view on this. So yesterday at the Food the Future countryside event, there's talk about food security locally as in uk and this is spoken about a lot when people say sort of farmers need to keep producing, we can't do too much with the environment, we need to produce food for our people, blah, blah, blah. But then you have the. When you talk about food waste, it's quite high and I can't remember the figure off the top of my head. So I'm thinking, how can we talk about food security when we have high food waste? Like, is there something going wrong there? [00:23:05] Speaker C: Yeah, we can't handle heart talk about food security and efficiency of production without dealing with food waste. And of course we need to. And we also need to consider how food is used within food banks and accessibility of high quality food for all members of our country. So critically, we do need to deal with food waste and there's some really exciting projects. Again, Harper Adams, looking at food waste and the role of food banks. In fact, we've just started our first Harper Adams commission on the future of food banks and how we can look at the circularity of food to reduce food waste. And of course where food is wasted is very different around the world. You know, in western society we often waste our food more post farm gate, ie it doesn't hit standards for supermarkets or we misunderstand use by date and have a throwaway culture. So we need to do that education and we need to support the supply chain of how they can connect and support people. And then in other parts of the world we have vast majority of food waste which is pre farm gates because of disease or bad soil health or lack of understanding of agronomy. And of course we need to educate and support that part of the world. One comment on food security. Of course we've got to ensure as a member, the message here shouldn't just be about our island, we are citizens of the planet and we need to support and look about food security globally and critically. That's also where food should be produced. And if an island who has been blessed with a soil conditions, a topography to produce grassland that can produce a high quality ruminant product more efficiently in other parts of the world, we should be looking at optimizing production Rather than reducing production. Because if we reduce production within the UK in these aisles and demand doesn't drop, which it won't, all we're doing is importing a product which is high greenhouse gas component, so we're contributing more to global warming and inefficiency. And of course, there isn't a single rural community in the UK that doesn't have grasslands and ruminants at its heart. There isn't. And I'm so glad, I think it's Flavian that you're interested in goats. My first love is goats, I think. Absolutely wonderful. Sorry guys, if that's a shock, but. [00:25:43] Speaker B: I was reading your, you know, your buyer that fab sent and I thought, that's fantastic. What a cowman on. At last we've got somebody who likes your cows. And now you just. Absolutely. [00:25:53] Speaker C: You only got a look at my office. I love cows, I love sheep. Goats have my. My heart. They. They really do. And I've been lucky. I've been lucky enough to work in Africa and see the value that these animals play in society and how they can really turn around impoverishment and for an animal to be able to do that now, a cow is great, but cow needs a lot of input. Sometimes in these society you haven't got that lot of input, whereas a goat can live off anything and they do. [00:26:26] Speaker D: What can me, you and Flab do, and Harper Adams do to raise the profile of goat farm in the UK as a viable option? [00:26:35] Speaker C: Well, that's, that's a great. That's a great challenge. [00:26:39] Speaker D: We know we're going to be emailing you about goats now. [00:26:43] Speaker C: I need to look at it. I suppose more people need to understand the high quality of products they produce and not just cheese and milk, but also meat. We need to educate the consumer. I'm more of a mutton than a lamb man and I'm more of a ghost than, you know, than a mutton man, because. But it's a very, very rich flavor and I suppose we need to educate the consumer around that. [00:27:08] Speaker D: Yeah. One question I was going to ask back to universities is do you think that in universities just focus on agricultural universities that it's tied enough to industry and actually a lot of. Is the research enough focused on, like, things that can actually benefit the industry? So, like, do universities need to do more in the. These really clever students, do we need to do more to sort of equip them better for jobs and afterwards so actually really focus on, like, what are the needs in each sector and especially like doctorates and stuff? Like that, could there be more emphasis on actually, right, what are the key things we need to find out here and really sort of set up courses and doctorates around that because sometimes I've found that we. You got these incredibly clever guys and they're doing this course or doing a project that actually isn't relevant to the industry that they want to work in. Are we doing enough and could. And what could we do to take advantage of that? [00:28:28] Speaker C: Yeah, great question, Chris. And this is the call that we need supporting these specialist universities. And I would say this has been half of it. It is absolutely true. We recently did a whole curriculum review and I've come on some research in a moment. We first started going into teaching, did the curriculum review about all our courses here at Harper Adams, we call it Harper Forward and this was making sure that the courses were relevant to industry for the challenges ahead. History lessons taught within universities and agricultural universities are no different. So for example, how agriculture was or is and of course what we need to teach is what agriculture needs to be in 5, 10, 15 years time. And involved in that process, Chris, was industry. So we brought in directly working with our academics to design those courses about how we teach. So that Harper Forward curriculum is really driving that. And of course our year of placement with employers makes our students extremely employable. In fact we have the highest employability in the UK of any university and second in the world. Bargaining crossover with that in terms of employability experience, in terms of research. Yeah, absolutely. I totally agree. And I think there has been a move towards more industry related research within government funding like Innovate UK and Phipps and BBSRC IPAs. Is there enough of it? No. Is it too difficult to get hold of? Yes. Is it too competitive so in public discourages industry members and academics? Totally. So we need to be a lot more joined up in how we're doing that. But you know, and I think with the Agritech sentiment, the merger, I would love to see a vehicle where the sector asks industry what your key issues are and then we form a bid and a grant around that and we pulled the correct academics and industry players to address that. Now that's challenging in the UK because we're so disparate. We have Parker Adams, we have sruc, we have Reading, we have Leeds, we have Newcastle, we have Rothamsted, we have Pirbright, we have all these amazing institutes and universities addressing key components of different parts of agri food. Whereas if you look at say on the continent, in France, they have inva a so Very collective with industry, a single organization to deliver that. In Ireland, they have Travis really focusing on agri food and the farmers know where to go with their key questions and the levels, they have argon in them. So we've got to find better mechanism in the UK that can get the best academics and the best, with the best industry questions and players to address those issues. And we're not connected enough. So it's very sporadic. I would love to see us more connected and that's whether the research is happening at Harper or my friends at Newcastle Ivors. That doesn't really matter as long as the best stuff is happening for the sector because we've got big challenges and we need to realize. Yeah, well said. [00:31:44] Speaker B: No, I think you're right, isn't it? I think that's one thing you're really good at in the UK is over complicating things then. [00:31:51] Speaker C: Absolutely. [00:31:52] Speaker B: Export, like over complicating stuff because like you say, you know, you mentioned like. And I, I can never say it right. The Irish Institute, I've had a little bit to do in the past. Doesn't look as t. Yeah, it doesn't look. Yeah. And then you look at what they're doing there and it's brilliant for the Irish farmers to have that, you know, that resource that they can pull on and that information there is just absolutely brilliant. Whereas we just don't have that. That, you know, we do, but it's not. [00:32:24] Speaker C: It's disparate. And of course, because we're a devolved nation, it's very different in Wales and England as it is to Scotland and Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland's a lot more connected with say, AFB and cafe, which are part of government to help advise farmers. Whereas we don't have that within the UK. We lost AGAs. We haven't got that classical knowledge exchange provider. Whereas CH in Ireland does all that in. In one organization. [00:32:49] Speaker B: So. [00:32:49] Speaker C: Yeah, I agree, Neil, It's. [00:32:53] Speaker B: Yeah. So like going back, you know, I was just reading, you know, obviously the stuff that Flav sent through and like you've achieved a lot. So what drives you to keep sort of pushing on and doing the stuff really from a personal point of view, because that's quite interesting because you've sort of pushed on you to career on, you've moved on and you know, what. What is that driving force there to do? Because I think people would find that quite interesting because, you know, it's quite easy to sort of sit back and relax. But the one thing we want to try and do in this podcast is get people to push their boundaries and, you know, get them the best at what they do. So, you know yourself, like what, what drives you really to doing what you do. [00:33:32] Speaker C: Yeah, thank you. That's a great, great question. I've always loved science and the fact that, you know, science is, it's not religion. There's no truth within science. We set a hypothesis and we challenge ourselves whether that hypothesis is correct. And it won't always be correct and there'll be parts that won't. And then we do an experiment and we find out what works, and then we set another hypothesis and we go with another. Expand. So every bit of scientific information has been developed and always evolved. And what's driving me is the fact that I, you know, fundamentally, to begin with, you know, my, my mother's Irish and I spent a lot of time on my grandfather's dairy farm. And I'm just watching that, you know, that that man deliver a high quality product from grass. And I started thinking about this nutrient transfer, this flow of nutrients that happens in life and that value. And of course then efficiency is about capturing most of those nutrients, as we said, wasting for water and air is lost nutrients. It's lost money. And so what really drove me is there's got to be an optimal system and how that works and those interactions about flow of nutrients from soil all the way through into nutrition. And that's been a real key driver for me. And my early part of my career, as I said, was very much on the food side in that human nutrition element. Understanding about micronutrients. I get very excited about selenium as a micronutrient and understanding how that's available and being used. And then when the other part of my career was then, okay, what about these new chip losses? And of course that balance then is written. And I've always said to my PhD students and my postdocs, you know, if I'm proved wrong, great. It's an idea, it's a hypothesis. Let's go again. And I suppose that's what I love about science and direction. It's challenging, but not being insulted when you're challenged back. And I think there's been too much of this within the agri food sector that there's not been enough challenge to say, actually, yeah, no ruminants or a critical component of this critical component. Let's look at the wider picture here, guys. You're just looking at it as a narrow lens and you're not looking at the endpoint game. And so that's what drives me is that challenge because there needs to be more of it. [00:36:10] Speaker B: No, 100%. Yeah. I mean the ruminance I think is just key to, I'll say rumors because then I can include goats in that to get these boys to get more CDC goats raising the fields of the uk. But. But I think it is. [00:36:25] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:36:27] Speaker B: I just think it's fascinating how. What a difference a rumor can make to how the farm works. [00:36:36] Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. I've always said if, if you had a Nobel Prize for someone who's going to deliver a system which can feed the world, someone came up with a box that sat alongside an animal and you fed into this box anything that was not digestible or edible by humans. And outside the other thing was a system that fed this animal to produce high quality nutrition. Now any inventor of that cheese, it's incredible. You can convert things that we can't eat into high quality nutrition. And what's more, an output of that drives soil health. Geez, you won the Nobel Prize. Well guys, that thing already exists. Herbs and farts. It makes milk. So that's a narrative. Yeah. [00:37:26] Speaker D: Michael, just, just one for me again. I'd be amiss not to mention it. So obviously I live up in Cumbria and we recently, over the last couple of years we've had our local agricultural college, Newton Rig has closed. Obviously Harper Adams is the sort of. Even though I went to Newcastle. Is the sort of. [00:37:45] Speaker C: I went to Newcastle, Chris, it's okay. [00:37:47] Speaker D: Don't worry about nightlife in Newport anyways, I'll say that yes, obviously it's the leading agricultural university. [00:37:55] Speaker C: Is. [00:37:56] Speaker D: Is it. Are other colleges under threat? What makes Harper Adams work and others not? And how do we sort of. Is there anything, any sort of words, advice you give other colleges and people that want to have an industry and are worried that maybe in sort of 5, 10 years time that there'll still be options. [00:38:20] Speaker C: Yeah, really great question, Chris. And I was up in Cumbria with my friend. I don't know if you know Pete Webster, one of the Hilton farmers up in Cumberland. They're fantastic farmers within only a few months ago. Yeah, the last Newton Rig was huge. And it's not just new, you know, there's been numerous examples of, you know, seal hay down in Cornwall, Devon. There's been numerous examples. I think the challenge is for these agricultural colleges is that they try, they have to try and cover every base and therefore they spread themselves so thinly they have to show every single type of system which costs an absolute fortune and what we need to do and we're starting to do this. We've just developed what we call our sustainable farm network and working with Landex. [00:39:07] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:39:08] Speaker C: Which covers all the land based colleges. If we work together and we exemplify best practice in regions where it's most appropriate, I think we'd say oil and sheep farming is not appropriate everywhere. And it's the same in terms with more TMR or forage based dairy systems, different outdoor and indoor pigs, upland and lowland sheep, you know, and different album cropping systems. Not every single college can exemplify best practice. So let's just work together and we need a sector that is confident enough to do that and doesn't compete. It goes back to our disparate nature and I think Landex and the sfn, what we've delivered can show that. In fact, I was only yesterday in Hartford talking to farm directors from the Landex colleges and it's wonderful to see that because that's a strange job if you think of being a farm manager, but a farm manager in a university or college. So you've got all the challenges of commercial. You've got crazy academics like myself pulling out your best dairy cows to do a crazy half brain scheme, you've got teaching staff which are needing, you know, X amount of ewes to go and do handling practice. So you've got all those other challenges and it's great to have that network as farmers to be able to talk together and learn. Now hopefully, I can't guarantee it Chris, but hopefully that gives us more resilience in the sector so we don't lose any more agricultural colleges. But critically to that as well, we need the flow of grains going into those. And that goes back to my first point of what school of stable food and farming is doing with Pearl Wad, which is about educating of schoolchildren and understanding this image that agri food is the most vital sector because there can be no bigger challenge of feeding the global population without destroying the world. So we need the best brains going into agri food, entrepreneurial coming up with new great ideas, not into the banking sector or anything like that. We need those people in. So we need to show them actually that there's high tech, it's high understanding, it's entrepreneurial thinking and problem solving. The most multidisciplinary science there is, agriculture. And we need to change that viewpoint to get more of our, of our, of our young people joining and going to agricultural colleges and become the future of feeding the world. [00:41:48] Speaker D: Yeah, no, very well said, Michael. Sorry Michael. Flab's gonna edit this bit out, but I've got a committee meeting for the local school playground, so I'm gonna have to shoot. So it's not. It's not all bad. [00:42:00] Speaker C: Right. Thanks, Michael. [00:42:02] Speaker D: Cheers. [00:42:02] Speaker C: Good seeing you. Catch up with you soon. Thanks, Matt. [00:42:06] Speaker B: Thanks, Chris. [00:42:08] Speaker A: Yeah, I'm not going to edit that out. We don't believe in that in there. [00:42:14] Speaker C: A child with you as well. Flapping earlier I saw a little head. Who is this? [00:42:19] Speaker A: He's here. I've had him on mute but he's been. He's been contributing. I'm so confused. [00:42:27] Speaker C: What are they talking about? [00:42:29] Speaker B: They're talking about now. [00:42:30] Speaker C: What do you reckon? It's like, what is this? What is going on? [00:42:35] Speaker B: It's crazy. [00:42:36] Speaker A: As long as it's in my arms and I'm tapping him is. I've got two points to make or questions really to hear your opinion on. One of them is about. You mentioned a byproduct saying how. Let's say like in. In pigs and poultry, we use biscuit meal, we use wheat feed. And I'm thinking going back to food security and food wasting, surely we should. We. I think there is enough technology. Yes, I know the history of bsc and what happened before. There must be enough technology and brain power in our industry now to successfully use some of the food waste we produce at whatever level that we pick, that we're going to use out safely to put into animals. Because I think when we're talking about like UK for example, it's an island, we got finite amount of land. So when people talk about outdoor everything, it just doesn't make sense, especially in pig and poultry. So we've got a finite amount of land, we want to use as much of that land to produce food for humans. And if we're carrying on increasing our population, the waste will go up as well. Surely we should be able to make use of that somehow. [00:43:47] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:43:48] Speaker A: So you can just go into it double is about the talk nowadays about less and better meat. Because like, personally, when. When I see farmers going against different food sort of dietary choices and like for example, veganism, I find it a waste of time because there are farmers out there, like I've got friends that grow quinoa, they would never complain about people getting vegan because they're still making money. So it's that thing of. Rather than either side because you do get it from vegan groups too, sort of pushing rightly sometimes when it comes to Welfare, pushing out U.S. livestock farmers saying we should change things or stop selling things. We do I think that less and better meat narrative has legs and I'm hoping that it keeps pushing on in the future. [00:44:43] Speaker C: Yeah, thanks Fabian. Two massive questions to end the podcast. So the first one in terms of food waste going back into livestock. Totally agree. One of the hats that I wear and hence you'll see my SVG lanyard is I'm honored to be a technical advisor to the FAO of the United nations and we were commissioned to write a report on circularity and the way that livestock are going to deliver foods, future food systems for the planet. One of the key thing is about circularity is that is that food waste element, particularly for pigs and poultry. And we're thinking about how that can be utilized and you're so right. There is enough science to understand now how we can ensure that swill or waste is used safely protected on key commodity and it's wider than that as well flavor. We should also be using packs a processed animal protein to omnivore species. And so pigs and poultry are omnivores and in the wild they would eat animals. So why not better utilize that resource. So I think PAP can go in and replace for example other products like soy particularly so we could significantly improve efficiency by that circularity. That FAO report which will go to all governments to help provide. And we are feeding into the European Commission. I'm the UK representative on an animal task force that feeds into the European Commission so we can make those changes. I know we're not in the EU anymore but also you know, often if things change with EFSA then the Food Standards Agency is quick to follow and of course we're feeding into Utah government as well. So Flavian totally agree. We have to. And it really then shows the key benefits of livestock. Less but better meat. Yeah, there's a key thing to emphasize here. It's about respect. It's about respect for everybody's decisions. And I'm sure you probably agree with me on Flavian. An individual who's gone becomes a vegan for their own personal choices. That's entirely to them and we should respect those decisions totally equally. Someone who's omnivorous and eats a balanced diet should equally be respected. So what is right for human and planetary health? And that's the key question. Less but better. And if you look at the Eat well guide, you'll see that the vast majority of the plates is plant based, high quality, UK grown produced plant based foods. But there is a critical component for the key development of key nutrients which is animal source and of Course, the quality of that production is key. There's a lot of narrative about we over consume, we over consume animal source foods while we over consume a whole load of foods, predominantly processed foods, plant and animal source. And if you look at the over consumption, it is predominantly ultra processed convenience foods, whether that be plant or animal based. And that's what we need to reduce. So in terms of a better, yes, cooking from scratch, understanding the quality of our food, local level, and people saying that we over consuming red meat within a week. Well, actually if we look at the data, we're consuming less than the WHO guidance of 70 grams per day and for women, particularly young women, significantly less. And that group is the highest level of anemia in the UK. 55% of young women in the UK are anemic, I. E have lower iron levels than is optimal. And the best source of food for iron, of course, is animal sourced food, particularly red meat. So we've got to be very careful in the narrative in terms of what we're under consuming and not over consuming. We are over consuming ultra processed foods, which includes animal source foods. But what we're under consuming is high quality nutrition plants, high levels of fiber and I've got to say red meat and dairy for that bioavailable iron and for obviously dairy, for calcium. So yes, that narrative has to be clear, but we need to understand what we're consuming too much of than what we're under consuming. And we certainly aren't only consuming benefits. [00:49:15] Speaker B: I think it's quite a nice way to sort of wrap it up because it just like it always just comes back to educate. Now we've done quite a few of these now, especially in the last series, and it always just comes back to people understanding where their food comes from, eating good quality food, not eating ultra processed food, sourcing their food locally, you know, and really going, you know, farming is like on a bit of a journey where it is heading back and we're doing more and more about looking after our soil more and looking after, you know, our land and doing this and looking at animals and all this stuff that we're doing well. So the UK public also needs to do the same and start looking after themselves more, you know, because we've got a situation where, you know, you've got a huge amount of obesities that are on the rise. You know, my drop my kids off at school and I'll look at the other kids their age and I think, wow, there is, you know, there's a lot of obesity in this school and it's you know, I live in a really middle class area, you know, and it's, you just look at that and you just think, wow, you know, that is a real problem there just brewing. And we just need to get back to basics and start off with those school kids and educate those kids that, you know, this is where your food comes from, this is where you need to eat. This is how you need to eat and prepare food. And it doesn't just come out of a plastic packet and go in a microwave and all the rest of it and just get back to, back to basics really. And the world will be a lot better place. And you wouldn't have the food waste and you wouldn't have all these things because you know, my daughters, they came in the other day and they get quite passionate about it and they said to me, they get really angry that they're with their school dinners and where the food's sourced from. They get really quite irate about this. And they had a go at the headmistress, called their 11 because the carrots come from China and they were absolutely mortified over this. These carrots were these, they were grown in China and they absolutely ripped into the, you know, into the school about, you know, where's this, where's this food coming from when it's ridiculous, when you've got local authorities and who are sourcing probably the cheapest food they can to feed the kids because they're on a budget and all the rest of it and you just think, hold on a minute, why are we feeding carrots at this time of year that are going to be out of season anyway? You know, carrots as a kid this time of year they came out with tin. Although you came up a freezer. [00:51:41] Speaker C: That's the critical thing here. General public doesn't understand seasonality because we've been spoiled. You know, food is available all year round and doesn't matter what time you want it, I'm going to get it. And of course we've been pushed this lie about convenience and labor saving. Everything has to be convenient and easy to access and everything we buy on these gizmos are labor saving. Geez, we must have so much free time. We must have so much free time because all our food is instant and every bit of new kit we buy saves us time. It's labor saving. [00:52:17] Speaker B: So what I don't understand is, you know, in the rest, a lot of Europe, it's not an issue. They eat seasonal food. You know, it's, you know, we are all right, we're not like you said, leaded to. We're not. We're not part of the Europe anymore, as in terms. But we are part of Europe, you know, geography. You know, we are. We are part of Europe and yet we seem to be so distant from. You know, you go to anywhere in Europe and they will just generally eat seasonal food. It's, you know, important stuff. It just doesn't. Just doesn't happen. And yet here we are, wanting everything. It just makes me angry. It makes me mad. I'm going to change it. [00:52:56] Speaker A: You get too wound up, Neil. And my friend here is showing signs of wanting a bottle. Yeah. I'd like to thank you so much, Professor Michael Lee, for coming on. And I think we could have gone on for three, four hours. Like there's so many. So many topics that they could just dive deep and go a bit deeper. And I think. I hope the listeners get plenty of food for thought and carry on the conversation with. Amongst farmers or even non farmers, because some of our listeners are non farmers. And just hopefully, bit by bit, we're going to get to a point where. I don't know by the time now, as an adult, everyone is conscious about where their food comes from. They shop locally, we've got vending machines everywhere. And the world is probably in a better place, hopefully. [00:53:45] Speaker B: And there's goats grazing the uk, the common place. [00:53:49] Speaker A: Neil, you joke about goats. I watched a video about Farm 2, actually. One is in Australia because of the drought. They kept having this massive ranch, got rid of all their cows and now they've got goats and it's like tens of thousands of goats. They've got. [00:54:06] Speaker B: I haven't got a farm. I should buy some goats and you could look after them for me. [00:54:11] Speaker A: Do it. Why not? [00:54:12] Speaker B: Yeah, let's do it. I'll buy some goats. I can't. I cannot sell them a tractor. I'm keeping that. And then. And I'll be a distant goat farmer. [00:54:23] Speaker C: You can host them here at Harper. Neil, I'll look after your goats. [00:54:30] Speaker B: Wherever you buy goats from, just now and then bloody mitzvahs. [00:54:35] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I've got some I can sell you. I was talking to a restaurant actually today in London that they. They're looking to get some of our goats, so I'm taking one to slaughter next week, try. And I'm gonna experiment, aging it two weeks and three weeks and see how that turns out. And then, yeah, they're just gonna smoke the meat because some of the ones I've got are like 8 years old. So you can't cook that like lamb. [00:55:01] Speaker C: And. [00:55:01] Speaker A: Yeah. Anyone else wanting a quick meal? Probably not that one, no. [00:55:06] Speaker B: No. [00:55:06] Speaker C: Well, if you want to do some. If you want some facilities. Flavian for developing that. We've got fantastic sensory and elite science facilities here at Harper. I'm sure we can give you a special rate. [00:55:17] Speaker B: Thank you. Thank you for the time. [00:55:19] Speaker C: Thank you. Thanks, Neil. Thanks for having. Thank you, Chris, as well. It's been great. Yeah. Stay in touch if you need anything.