Halal Meat Marketing. with DrAwal Fuseini.

[00:00:02] Speaker A: Hello, everyone. We're back with three prong podcast and today we've got another very interesting guest. But as our usual fashion, which hasn't featured in a few of our last episodes because we recorded them a while back, is our good, bad and ugly segment. But today, because we need some positivity, I think we're all. We've all got a good. I think so I think we should start with you, Chris, what's your good? [00:00:34] Speaker B: Yeah, and a good for me, actually, going back to one of the first podcasts and very topical for tonight's guest, I was explaining how sad it was that our local abattoir, black brow up in Cumbria, had closed and was meaning quite a longer trip for myself. And as many people know, there's a hell of a lot of animals in Cumbria and a lot of people, especially out of COVID created their own businesses to sell meat direct to the consumer from farm. Well, the good news is it has reopened and they are investing in it. It's a business who have various different abattoirs and cutting plants over the UK. They are doing halal slaughter and yeah, it's brilliant for me and I think they're opening a door. They're investing in the plant, making it better, more employment for local people and really seem to be giving it a good go. So, great to see. And, yeah, I hope that other abattoirs maybe reopen as well because, yeah, I think it's been a bit of a downward spiral, but this is a bit of positivity. [00:02:05] Speaker A: So, good, you're up now. [00:02:10] Speaker C: My good is probably a bit of a selfish good, then. So I was really fortunate a couple of weeks ago to get the opportunity to hop on a plane and go to Florida and talk at a conference about cattle hoof trimming, which was a real pleasure to be able to go and really showcase what we do in the UK because we have some of the highest standards in the world, really, around the guys that are trimming the cows feet in this country. So it was a great honour to go across America and then talk to them about what we're doing and hopefully they are going to use our blueprint to sort of move on what they do there. But it's certainly a tough nut to crack. The Americans, they're pretty steadfast in their ways and very, very opinionated, but hopefully it's that they are seeing the benefits of having a sort of structure in place. [00:03:01] Speaker A: Does it differ that much then, the uk way of doing it? Is it like chocolate, cheese or. [00:03:08] Speaker C: No, there's not a lot of difference in how you trim a cow's foot. It's just we've got a lot of qualifications available and, and a little bit of regulation around what we do. So, for example, if you were selling, if you're a farmer selling to Sainsbury's, the guy coming onto the farm, trimming the cows, has to. Have to be a member of an association and has to be qualified to be able to do that. So that's really good. So supermarkets like Sainsbury's and M and s doing a similar thing. And won't be long before sort of Tesco's follow as well. And they're the people that are sort of pushing it. Whereas America, it's still a bit of the wild west, unfortunately, but there is that talk there within their food industry that they're getting more consumer pressure to sort of improve animal welfare. [00:03:55] Speaker A: I definitely not know who trimming went that deep. I thought you just trimmed the foot, let the cow walk nicely, and that's it. My good this week is it was my first time today going to a livestock market as a seller. I've always gone to livestock markets with friends and taken other people's animals, but I've never taken my own. And I don't know how people deal with that pressure, because as soon as I got there, and I knew I was waiting for them to sell, I don't know how much they're going to sell, even though the price is quite good for sheep at the moment. My heart was beating so hard when we got to the pen, my sheep were in, but luckily, my other friend, another Chris, he was selling his sheep as well. So he took care of the standing in the pen and sort of telling people what the sheep were doing. So, yeah, that was definitely my farming highlight today. And hopefully going again next week under market breakfast, which was really good. [00:04:52] Speaker B: Did you just sort of say you lost for words? [00:04:56] Speaker A: What's that? [00:04:57] Speaker B: Well, you wouldn't stand in the pen like I thought. [00:05:00] Speaker A: God, I thought you'd be. Well, it's my first time on the market. I was thinking, I don't want to be jinxing this price. So I just. I stood there, but I just. Quiet. Whether people knew I had sheep in there as well. [00:05:15] Speaker C: Do you know who I am? You want these sheep? [00:05:21] Speaker A: I stand out as it is, actually. There's. There's two black guys there, me and my mate Dylan. So I didn't. Well, I've got dreads, he doesn't, so I still stand out. Yeah, I wasn't saying much. Right. So to introduce our guest. I think we're getting a fair few highbrow guests lately. Had a MD last week we got a doctor. This week we got doctor our for saying a fellow african, but from. From the west side. He is the senior halal sector manager at AHDBD. He's also an author and a fellow podcaster. So if we can get some tips from you and your topic of interest is mainly animal welfare, particularly halal slaughter, among other things. So, yeah, we're looking forward to picking your brains on this and. Yeah, Ramadan Mubarak. [00:06:22] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:06:22] Speaker A: Tell us a bit more about yourself, man. [00:06:24] Speaker D: Sorry? [00:06:26] Speaker A: I said tell us a bit more about yourself. [00:06:28] Speaker D: Yeah. So, well, as you said, thank you very much for the invite. It's a privilege to be here, to be able to share some thoughts around halal with you guys. So I'm a senior halal sector manager at the Agriculture and Horticulture Development Board. My background is in animal welfare and meat science. I did my master's and PhD in Bristol University. My PhD actually involved the slaughter of adult cattle. My master's was on general meat science. So we did a lot of stuff on meat science, and I did a dissertation looking at post mortem data in a beef abattoir. So both my PhD and my masters have got something to do with cattle. [00:07:21] Speaker A: And so have you. Have you stayed with just sort of focusing on cattle or have you ventured out with sheep and sheep and goats? Obviously, I, being a muslim listeners, I don't know. You don't consume pork, so those are probably your main focuses. [00:07:41] Speaker D: Yeah. So in terms of my research area, it was in cattle, but I've written a lot on poultry and also on small ruminants. And at the minute with the halal sector, as you know, or as you as people may know, it accounts for a vast majority of small remnants slaughter. So at the minute, in my current role, I focus a lot on small remnants, but I do a bit on beef slaughter as well. [00:08:12] Speaker A: For listeners that don't know what. What makes meat halal? [00:08:19] Speaker D: Okay, that's a very good question. So there are. If you. If you're looking at the requirements of halal meat production, there are three ways you can look at it. So the person bleeding the animal, the animal you are slaughtering, the type of animal you slaughtering, and the knife you're using to slaughter the animal. So first, let's look at the animal you slaughtering. Not all animals can be, can be, can be, can be slaughtered as halal. So pigs, for instance, that's a classic example of animals that cannot be slaughtered for halal, carnivorous animals, any carnivore, a various animal cannot be slaughtered for, for halal consumption. Poultry, small remnants and large ruminants are all accepted, including pseudo ruminants like camels. So in terms of the acceptable animals, those are the acceptable and the forbidden animals. Now the animal at the point of slaughter must be alive. And it's always very, you have to be careful when you are saying the animals should be alive because there's a difference between an animal being conscious and, or an animal being unconscious and an animal being alive. The difference is that if you stun an animal, you can stun an animal and the animal will be unconscious while still being alive. So that is why some Muslims accept stunning, because the rules are that the animals must be alive. So what their argument is that if you stun an animal and you don't use a lethal method of stunning, then that would be acceptable. So maybe we can come back to that later. So that is in terms of the animal, the person believing the animal must be an adolescent must recite a short prayer. And the short prayer is simply Bismillah. That means in the name of God. Some people say Bismillallahu Akbar. So in the name of God, God is great before the slaughter, it must be done before slaughter. And this has got some christian or jewish relation as well. So Christians, most practicing Christians, before they consume food, they will do the grace, they will say the grace to thank God for providing the food for them. That is very similar to Muslims. They thank God for providing an animal that they are about to take the life of. If you don't know this, some people will present it as if halal is a very ritualistic thing where people are singing and dancing when slow during slaughter. But that is not the case. There is a significance to the recitation of the prayer and that is very similar to the grace that christians do. The last bit is the knife you are using. The knife must be surgically sharp and it must be at least twice the diameter of the neck. The reason for this is it must be long enough so that you can place it at one end of the neck and draw it to the other end in one swift movement. Sewing during halal slaughter is discouraged or is forbidden. So it's not good to be sowing during slaughter. It's good to do a one swift cut the carotid, carotid arteries in jugular veins so that you can stop blood from reaching the brain. So in a nutshell that does the explanation of halal slaughter. [00:11:38] Speaker B: Now that was a really good explanation. Just going on something you said. Yeah. What percent of Muslims do accept study, roughly. [00:11:48] Speaker D: So that's a very interesting question. We did a study in 2017 where we interviewed islamic scholars around the UK. We also interviewed halal consumers. When we started the conversation, we asked the scholars, if an animal is stunned and then slaughtered with, according to the halal rules, will the meat be accepted? The majority of them said, no, the meat will not be accepted. However, when we change the question and say, okay, if an animal is stunned and the method of stunning does not result in the death of the animal, would you accept the meat? 95% of the scholars said, if we can demonstrate to them that the method of stunning doesn't kill the animal, then the meat will be halal. That's why I say it's very tricky when you are having this discussion. You have to differentiate between an animal being unconscious and an animal being dead. [00:12:52] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:12:54] Speaker C: And how much. How much, sort of, how many animals in the UK are killed or sorted doing that method that you've just spoken about, and how many are the more, say, traditional, where stunning? You know, like, where is that sort of. Where is that sitting? [00:13:14] Speaker D: Okay, that's. That's another interesting question. And we only have data for England and Wales. We don't have data for Scotland. And the data from the Food Standards Agency showed that if you take the total throughput for England and Wales into consideration, halal straugh accounts for 70. Around 70%, or 72 point, I think, 72.3% of the total small remnants. So sheep and goats. 72% of the total animals that are slaughtered in England, in Wales are slotted by the halal method. Large ruminance cattle, around 4% in England and Wales. So if you take the whole throughput that is. That goes through abattoirs in England and Wales, cattle will be 4%. That is, Dan. Halal and poultry will be 21%. So 72% for small remnants, 4% for cattle, and 21% for poultry. [00:14:18] Speaker C: Okay. [00:14:19] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:14:20] Speaker C: I mean, it's. It's massive numbers, isn't it? Really? It really is. Really is huge. I didn't realize that the numbers around, uh, you know, sort of sheep and goats was. Was that high. [00:14:31] Speaker D: Yes. [00:14:32] Speaker C: Really is staggering. [00:14:33] Speaker D: Yeah. So now to. You need to. When you're looking at the throughput values, you don't just look at only the throughput. You need to look at frequency of consumption and also amount of money that is spent on meat. So if we take muslim consumers, for instance. Muslim consumers, around 62% of Muslims consume lamb at least once a week, 62% of Muslims compare this to the general population. It's only 6% of the general population that will consume lamb at the some point during the week. So 62 against 6%, that's the frequency of consumption. Now let's move on to the amount of money that is spent on, on meat. Muslim households will spend 28 pounds 50 pence a week on meat against only twelve pounds 60 pence spent by the general population. That is huge. I'll give you an example. Let me use myself. [00:15:35] Speaker C: For instance. [00:15:36] Speaker D: Last week before we started Ramadan, I spent 40 pounds on lamb and chicken. That was last week, just before this podcast. 2 hours ago I went to the shop and bought 49 pounds worth of meat, lamb and chicken. So that is, I'm over indexing, I'm above the average. The average is saying 28 pounds 50. I'm spending not less than 40 pounds on meat a week. But if you compare this, if I were to ask Chris or Neil how much you spend on, well, whether you spend, you consume lamb in the last week, whether you spend, you consume mutton in the last month, you are likely to say no to mutton because almost 100% of the mutton that is produced ends up in the muslim community. [00:16:26] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:16:27] Speaker D: So the halal market is very important, but when we are discussing these things, people politicize it. It is an important market for farmers. If we take our time to look at the facts, it's very important, but it tends to be politicized. [00:16:43] Speaker C: That's a real shame though that it's politicized, isn't it? I mean it's just, it's a real shame. And I think, you know, just listening to those numbers and those figures, it's like, and I was doing a little bit of, a bit of research on yourself and some of the stuff you put out there and talking about that, the size of the market there for british agriculture, for british farming, really, british farming and agriculture should be just absolutely looking to maximize this market as much as we can. [00:17:13] Speaker D: Absolutely, yeah. Because without it, as I said, Martin, if I were to. Okay, Neil, this is a question for you. When was the last time you ate? Martin. [00:17:23] Speaker C: No, I don't, I don't, I don't eat a lot of lamb or mutton, to be honest. [00:17:27] Speaker D: There you go. I always try to use, when I speak to people, I always try to ask them, when was the last time you ate it? And people will tell you, look, honestly, I haven't eaten it, but Muslims will eat it every day. [00:17:42] Speaker B: Yeah, it's like for example, I was, yeah, I know the importance of the halal market, especially for lambda. Yeah, you look at you going to a supermarket and you see these. I think we've been quite creative with steaks on beef and stuff like that, but very much on a supermarket shelf. Lamb is your traditional roasting joints, mints, chops, which like, I'm not. I a lot big lad, like lamb chop doesn't really fill me, especially compared to a pork chop. So like, you just think we haven't been as creative. If you look at, like to New Zealand, there's lots of different ways that they balance the car because better than we do. So it's so crucial, in my opinion, that we tap into that market of someone that is actually championing british lamb. What I would say to you is, how can we encourage farmers to get behind this sort of movement and the push towards halal slaughter and get them to be champions of who they're producing for? [00:19:06] Speaker D: So I speak to farmers across the country and I always, you see, the trouble is there's a lot of misinformation about halal in the media, whether in mainstream media or social media, there's a lot of misinformation. Now because of that misinformation, farmers are scared of getting involved. Not until we take our time, as I said, give them the facts of the matter and say, look, this is actually the case. This is what you find on Internet. It's not a good representation of the halal market. Take New Zealand in Australia, for instance. Almost hand everything in Australia is halal. Almost hundred percent of their ship is slaughtered halal. But we are not there yet. We are 70%. We need to embrace it. We need to understand the significance of the market and we just need to speak the facts. No stories about what is going on when that is not the fact. Let's face the fact. Once we present the facts to farmers, they will become more receptive to the idea of halal slaughter. [00:20:14] Speaker A: I think that point there also from a social element of it, we can see what politics is like in this country. And when we've got an industry struggling, like today at the market where the sheep price has been up for what, at least a month now or more. Yesterday I was just talking around nursery saying Easter's next weekend, sort of. Edith, is it 1st, 1st week of. [00:20:45] Speaker D: April or it's around the 9 April 9th? [00:20:49] Speaker A: Yeah. So you think, I guess after Easter we've got Eden. After that. Then what people like in this country, even me working as a butcher and a farm shop, you can see the peaks and troughs when people buy a lot of lamb, when it's Easter coming up, everyone wants to buy lamb, but then throughout the year, people don't eat lamb that much. Whereas, as you can see, a growing population in this country of Muslims want to eat lamb. But then you've got socially and politically worldwide, not just in the UK, you have that agenda in the background that, um, essential Islamophobia, which is ruining it for an industry here. And I think a lot of people are siphoning propaganda. People go down the road of, oh, but they're saying a prayer to my food. So, hang on, how do you know that a baker doing sourdough in London or whatever doesn't say grace before doing your bread? You don't know that. And if you don't believe in a religion or that religion, I don't follow a particular religion. Why does it bother you if someone to say Bismillah before slaughtering an animal because you want to say thanks? Like, for me, I brought up a Christian. Every time I've put down a pig, there's something I say within me because it's an animal's life you take. You don't just, like, just look at an animal and go, bang. There's something. I always pause for a second or two before I put the animal down. So this whole thing of propaganda and people saying, oh, you're praying on my food. I don't need to pray on my food. I think, again, it's back to the lack of knowledge and ignorance, really. [00:22:29] Speaker C: Sorry. You go, Chris. [00:22:30] Speaker B: So you mentioned about in Australia being almost 100%, what have they done to make it more acceptable? And what is there anything that we can learn from them? [00:22:44] Speaker D: So, the Australians, what they've done is, if you go to the Middle east, the majority of all the world, the majority of the products that are exported to the muslim majority countries are either from Australia, New Zealand or Brazil and countries like that. The Australians have been marketing their products as halal for a long time and this is how they do it. They stun all their animals. Yeah, before halal slaughter. But what they then do is that they've got what they call demonstration of recovery. So they've got a facility to invite Muslims into the abattoir. They stun the animal to show the animal, the Muslims, that the method of stunning they using is not lethal, it's not going to kill the animal. So they have a mechanism to demonstrate to the muslim community that their method does not kill the animal. That allays fear of some Muslims that all stunning methods kill. I know there are still some stunning methods that will kill captive bull, penetrative captive bulls. Stunning, for instance, will destroy the brain and will kill the animal. But they are using hedonic electrical stunning. And the same thing that we are using here, head only electrical standing for our small remnants. We have tried to do, to mimic what they are doing by introducing what is called demonstration of life in the UK. So there is now a facility in the UK where abattoirs can actually participate. The FSA will come in with the muslim community to do the demonstration so that you can demonstrate to them that, look, the method of standing you are using doesn't kill. So they. But the Australians have been doing it for decades. [00:24:35] Speaker A: Okay, that's amazing. [00:24:37] Speaker C: I mean, going back to being like what flav was saying and like, the whole public perception, because there is a sort of negative. There is a negative public perception. You know, you say to somebody about Halal and they. The person they think is all you dig is obviously just, you know, setting an animal's right and obviously does. There needs to be more of a line. And I'm saying this from a really naive point of view. So I'm trying to be naive. Right. Sometimes that, you know, you've got kosher, which. And there needs to be a sort of clear line. Now, I've got a little bit of an understanding of both. I haven't got a massive understanding, but there needs to be a line, doesn't it, between two. Because one could, you know, it could be damaging, potentially. Without wanting to sound disrespectful. [00:25:32] Speaker D: Yeah. You see, the funny thing is that you hardly hear about kosher in the public. All you hear about is halal, halal, halal. And it's just. I think Muslims have taken their bashing for a. Yeah, far. For a long, long time. And people just. Muslims are easy. It's easy to sort of take your anger on Muslims and just leave anybody. So the difference between kosher and halal is halal, Kosha. None of the kosher slaughter is stunned. It's slaughtered with all of them. They don't accept stunning at all. They believe stunning is inconsistent with their rules. But the majority of halal is stunned. So that's the difference. But halal still takes the bashing from the public. [00:26:23] Speaker A: And there, I think it's because this is something I think personally and looking at how people talk on social media and publicly, especially with other things going on in the world, when you compare kosher and halal, it's easy to jump on a islamophobic side of things, because that's been happening for ages. But kosher, because at a jewish religion, anything you say, even if it's questioning, you're seen as anti jewish religion and you quickly get condemned for that. Because I've asked this question before, why do we not hear about kosher slaughter that happens. We know it's non stunt, but no one talks about it. Whereas if you mention halal anyway, like Neil says, straight away, people raise their eyebrows, people say, oh, you can't do that. And I think for me, from a farmer's perspective, the whole thing of slaughtering an animal with respect and all sorts, for me, the animal experiencing pain, and I know studies have been done. Like you had a guest at the great temple Grandin on your I at your podcast hour. [00:27:38] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:27:38] Speaker A: And I know tests have been done on how you can slaughter an animal without stunning. And they've checked the speed you can do it, how it affects a carotid veins, whether the brain is still conscious or not. And I think for me, as a farmer, and this is ignoring everything else, just as a farmer that doesn't care about anything else but their animals, why should I look after an animal for sheep? Let's say five, six months, if it's a hoggetta be over a year, a cow a year, two years, three years, four years. Why should I spend all that time looking after an animal? If you get sick, I'll get it treated. I don't want to see the animal suffering whatsoever. And yet 1020 seconds of its last bit of its life. I can't take care to take pain from it or take pain away from it. That's a bit I don't understand. And I think the fact that halal slaughter is making ways to still fulfill the religious needs that it's its consumers need, but also catering for the animals welfare. Whereas the other one we're talking about, kosher, I don't know whether there's any studies being looked into how they can alleviate animal from experiencing pain. Because they do experience pain. Let's be honest. [00:28:54] Speaker D: That'S a difficult question from, look, from a, if I'm speaking from official perspective, from HDB's perspective, we collect levies from any animal that is slaughtered in the UK. So we can't. Maybe you can comment on the welfare aspect. I cannot comment, I cannot try to denigrate one slaughter over the other. But we always try to improve the slaughter process for the non stand slaughterhouse. There are ways to improve it. There are ways to improve it. So, for instance, let's just look at the signs. If you look at small ruminants, for instance, small ruminants, they have all their blood vessels in front of the neck. The carotid and the jugulars are here. So we know the carotid artery will take blood from the heart to the brain and the jugular veins will take deoxygenated blood back to the rest of the body. Now, if, because they are both here, if you have a very sharp knife and you cut it in a very swift manner, you disconnect the blood from moving in both directions because you cut both the carotids and the jugular veins. So you disconnect the blood. However, there will still be some residual blood in the, in the brain that will keep the animals sensible for a few seconds. And research has shown that in terms of small remnants, when you slaughter them without stunning, they can still feel the pain between four and 20 seconds. I know 4 seconds. Some people may, some people may say, oh, that is too small or the duration is very short. But an animal being in pain for 4 seconds is, yeah, it still counts. But as I said, 4 seconds. Now I have to present, I have to present the facts without emotional intake. [00:30:43] Speaker C: Yeah, no, I think you make a really good point there about putting it across and obviously you can't, you know, you're, you know, you workdb and like you rightly say, you know, they're collecting their levees across all animals. I just think it would be really, I think one of the, I'm not a marketing person at all, but I think from a point of view of marketing, you know, Halal and meat, these sort of facts need to be really put out there, you know, because when I, you know, when you speak to people about it, they are still convinced. There you go. And it's just, you know, a slice of the knife type fair. And I think these facts really need putting kosher to one side because it's not a compare and contrast. I think what's important is to concentrate on Halal, and that's why we've asked you on here. And I think the figures that you put out there in terms of how many, the number of mutton and lamb that goes into that market is massive. And that's what UK farmers, and I'm not involved in the sheep industry in any way, but this is a market that just absolutely needs to be maximized. And obviously the muslim population in this country is growing. That market is only going to get bigger. And obviously what you were talking, going back about spending money on, on meat. We've got a situation in the UK where people. I was in a supermarket on Saturday and I'm grabbing a few bits, but I never buy meat from a supermarket. I've got a fantastic butcher around the corner, Hanks meat and game. Give him a shout out, he's brilliant, really, locally source, all great stuff. And I'm looking at this woman and she's there looking at this piece of lamb that's cellophane wrap, probably been shipped from New Zealand. [00:32:34] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:32:34] Speaker C: And I'm looking, I felt like tapping. [00:32:36] Speaker D: Her on the shoulder saying, do you. [00:32:37] Speaker C: Know what, you want to put that money, you go like 150 yards around the corner, there's a butcher shop there that will probably sell you a piece of lamb for very similar amount of money and it'd be the best lamb you've ever eaten, you know, but it's not, it's that whole. I don't know, that's a whole different discussion. [00:32:53] Speaker D: But yeah, yeah, I'm happy. You mentioned population growth. That is another area that is supporting the halal market. So even without population growth, Muslims consume a lot of meat. Now if you take the population into account, Muslims, the population of Muslims is expanding at a rate greater than the non Muslim, the general population. And also if you break it down, they are relatively younger than the general population. So I'll give you an example. Between 2011 and 2021, the population of England and Wales expanded by 3.52 million. So 3.5 million, 2 million over. Over ten years. Out of that, 3.52, Muslims accounted for 1.16 million. That is a growth of 33% of the muslim population, far, far greater. So 33%. So we also know there are younger, they've got higher disposable income, they consume a lot of meat. So all these numbers, if you are a farmer and you are not excited about it, you never get excited. [00:34:05] Speaker A: That's why I say there is that issue there of the misinformation and some sort of social barrier there. And I think like conversations like this, like I've seen, like you've been, you've been all over the place and I've been calling you Mister worldwide, going to the Middle east and even back home, like I saw you in West Africa and I think even visiting all these remote towns, getting farmers in a town hall or whatever, give them some, I don't know, sausage or sausage and mash or something, just get them down there and just having. Because these figures you're talking about here, like 62% and that 28 pound, like what farmer shouldn't shouldn't, but I should light up at that. Yeah. And I think there's a question I was gonna ask you that I think it's gone. Do you think. Yeah. Do you think like the assurance schemes? Because a lot of farmers and supermarkets work with these assurance schemes, whether people like them or not. Do you think they can do some bits to, to promote salal? [00:35:14] Speaker D: Yes, if they could use. So I'm not gonna mention any assurance because I'm not. I don't want to be biased. Was any assurance. But if any assurance, say, let's say Flavian Assurance limited, you were assuring you are a farm assurance and you decided to support the halal market and just add a bolt on module. So all you need to do is, okay, if they are coming to farm, to do, to do auditing around animal welfare, I'll add a bit of halal and halal on the farm. All we looking for is what type of feed are the animal being fed, how are they managed on site? So if the welfare is good, the feed hasn't got any animal derivatives. And I know in this country ruminants are not supposed to be to be fed on animals anyway, so that complies on its own. So if they could bolt it on and say, look, we need to take these boxes when we are on farm. We need to take boxes, these boxes when we are in an abattoir. That could add a lot of value. But I don't think any of these guys have thought of our thought of adding halal just to add value to what they are doing. Yeah. Something. Can I. Can I just say, show you something that this is a picture, I don't know whether you can see it properly. This is a picture of british lamb that was taken in Dubai just this morning. [00:36:38] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:36:39] Speaker D: Look closely. The price is 225 UAE. Well, UAE currency, which is the dirhams, british lamb halalam being sold in an export market for our farmers. Two to. Two to five dirhams is around 48 pounds. That is 48 pounds per kilo that our products are being sold in Dubai. And that's halal. [00:37:05] Speaker A: Wow. [00:37:06] Speaker D: So that apart from the domestic market, that is the export market as well. [00:37:11] Speaker B: No, that's, that's really fascinating. It'd be a miss of me. Um, whilst we've got you on here, just to, to talk about the goat meat market in the UK, obviously it's a growing market and again, very popular with the muslim sort of community. One issue we have is competing with imports when often, when I say the price to various different potential customers, they balk at it because of cheap imports from, often frozen from Spain. And I asked them all, is it halal? And they say, oh, well, I was told it was halal. I just wondered, on imports, is there anything, any sort of checks or is there anything that could be done or is being done to make sure that what the muslim community here are eating is halal? Or is it literally just. You could put a sticker on it and say that it was halal. [00:38:25] Speaker D: Unfortunately, there is. There are no checks that have been done on products that are coming on come coming into the UK to testify or to attest their halal status because of this. I actually wrote a paper on this some years ago, maybe three, four years ago, on fraud in the halal market. And you'll be surprised to see the number of people that have been prosecuted for intentionally buying non halal products and just sticking a label on it. So, and that that has got something to do with maybe importation or even domestic production. So as a farmer, we know there is market for goat meat within the muslim community. So as a farmer, if there's a way you could market your products directly to the consumer, because the younger muslim consumer is looking for assurance to make sure that the product is allowed, so they are happy to spend more on local products to just make sure it meets their religious requirements and also quality. So the quality and assurance are two important things. There are some consumers who are happy to just buy cheap imports, but there are others. If you can model your products well, you can actually maximize a lot of, a lot of value. I know one farmer in the south of England, he has been able to market his products directly to the consumer and he is expanding. Anytime I speak to him, he said, look, we're building a new cutting facility. We're doing this. We expanded this because he's been able to sell it directly to them. He's been able to market it as an assured product. When I say assured, there's no certification needed, but assurance by the farmer that the products are from this farm. I know the farm, the products are slaughtered here. I know where they are slotted and they are cut here. I know they butchery where they are cut. That level of assurance is very important for the muslim community. [00:40:20] Speaker C: So the muslim community are very, very keen to know where their foods come from. [00:40:26] Speaker D: Absolutely. That is very important because, because of the cost of living crisis, there will be some proportion of the community just looking for cheap products. So whether it's imported, they just want a halal stick on it. And that is where the corruption. The fraud comes in some processes. Some sellers will intentionally sell non halal products just with a stamp and say, look, this product is halal. It's happened. They've prosecuted so many people around the UK. [00:40:57] Speaker A: I think that I saw this firsthand when I did a market in Brixton last year and the number of times and I've done markets in other places which don't have that high flow of people from the muslim community. And the number of times people are asking because I had goat, lamb and pork separate, made it clear. And obviously I had friends there, so I had friends touching the pork and I had gloves when I was doing the lamb and goat. [00:41:29] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:41:30] Speaker A: And the first question to be asked, is it halal? You say, yes. Is that okay? What, what do you feed them? What do they eat? Like, they go to Sid, they just walk around and eat on the farm and then add another phrase. I've had use tayib, which is about safety. [00:41:49] Speaker D: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:41:51] Speaker A: The wholesomeness. And as you say there, Neil, it seems like we've got a community here, muslim communities, because a lot of the other foods eaten at home, like if you're like Jim Ramadan and Iftar, my aunt is a Muslim and saw her growing up, even though he's in Kenya, a lot of stuff is cooked from scratch. So if you're going to cook from scratch, you're going to have a look at the. Where the food comes from, the spices and all sorts of stuff. So I think even comparing. Another issue farmers are struggling with at the moment is trying to get the consumer to understand where their food comes from and telling that story. We're dealing with a customer here that they've already done their job for us, or that job's already been done. Someone's coming to you say, okay, I want this, I want this, I want this. So again, reason number 1000 why we should be catering for the halal market there. [00:42:49] Speaker D: Yes. So let me just, let me, let me just add something. You see, due to the negativity around halal, we do just forgo or we just overlook some very important aspects of halal meat production. So traceability is very important, as you mentioned. The other thing is environmental sustainability is very, very important in halal food production. So, yeah, Muslims believe, and it is in the quran, that God created the earth in. In an equilibrium. So equilibrium means everything that God left for us. So the natural resources, water, plants and all that are supposed to be in equilibrium. And we are advised that if we use those resources wisely, if we don't pollute our water bodies, if we don't overgraze our lands, if we don't deforestate the land, if we don't cause land degradation, because God presented it in that manner to us, if we can manage it well, it will be able to, we will be able to feed future generations. But if we violate any of God's rules and pollute the environment, do all the nasty things to the environment, tomorrow our children will not be able to find food. And on the day of judgment, when we die, Muslims believe that on the day of judgment, if you violate the rules of the equilibrium nature of the natural environment, God will punish you on the day of judgment. It's a very, very important thing. But because of the negative, we focus too much on slaughter. We forget all the positives around halal. [00:44:30] Speaker A: And even, interestingly there, because we're in a society now that a lot of people are secular, they have a religion, atheism or whatever, which is fine. People can do whatever they want to do. But when you look at it from that point there, that environmental sustainability, everyone's bleeding about environmental sustainability now. And in all my. Some brief, some deep reading on halal side, you don't see that environmental sustainability mentioned. [00:45:00] Speaker D: I. [00:45:01] Speaker A: And aside from the fact that, like I say, if people don't want to focus on the religious side, just look at the simple bits there which marry up. Like we've got SFI now talking about environmental sustainability. You've got a group of people or religion that follows that. Again, I'm struggling to find reasons not to. For farming, not to. Not to cater to this market. Seriously, not just during, like during Eid. [00:45:31] Speaker D: Yeah. And as I said, look, we need to all have. Look at it positively. We have to look at it with an open mind. We have to, we have to be objective to muslims. I gave you the example with the grace. If a Christian is sitting here to eat and says, thank God for the food provided, it will be fine if you sat in the restaurant. But if a Muslim say bismillah and start to eat, everybody will be like, what the hell is going on? But it's the same fans. We are given to God, but it's true Muslim. Everybody will look at it to be something funny, but it's not. It's just the same thing the Christian did, the grace. That's the same thing the Muslim is doing. [00:46:08] Speaker B: Would it, would it be a benefit to the UK halal consumers if there was a sort of pronounced sort of certification or stampede that was like, like you said, it'd be an easy add on, because most farmers are already doing that. And to cover off the slaughter that, like you said, such a high proportion of lambs are already having, that could sort of safeguard farmers to that UK farmers to that market and also give halal consumers peace of mind. That really is a big thing coming out of this conversation for me. That does sort of, yes, spark definite opportunity for growth there. [00:46:56] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:46:57] Speaker D: But it's important to add that there are halal certification bodies in the UK, but they normally just focus on the point of slaughter. They don't go to the farm to see what is going on. They don't do transportation assurance, all they do is slaughter, slaughter assurance. So if we could get something that will cover the entirety of the life, a holistic system, I think that would. [00:47:20] Speaker B: Be better, because that could be done easily with the animal welfare, the animal pathway visits that have been by a vet, that could be an easy add on and tick from that vet, that could then tie in full traceability and, yeah, could, could add quite a lot to the, to the supply chain. Yeah. [00:47:49] Speaker A: Because I think also with that, with the taib aspect of it, I've always assumed that Taib should start from the far, even from an animal being born, really. Because surely if an animal has experienced, let's say, 50% of his life has been non taib, surely killing it in the best possible way to make it halal doesn't qualify as taeb, or am I understanding it wrong? [00:48:14] Speaker D: No, you are understanding this right. Tayyip should, should apply from the day the animal is born, so the time is slaughtered, and then the meat should apply to the meat as well. So what, what is fed to the animal is very important, but as I said, there are certifiers, but they don't have the resources to cover everything. So if there is a way the UK could implement something that is holistic. So that allowed me. That gets to your table. You know that this halal meat has gone through a proper auditing system from the time the animal was given, what was, was born. So the time the product gets to your table. [00:48:56] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I think so. [00:48:59] Speaker C: I've just sat quiet and listened to all of that sort of time's wrapping up. So basically what you're saying, how I meet, it's the way it's slaughtered. It is slaughtered in a humane way. The animal's stunned, but the animal is unconscious but still alive. The consumer is growing and getting bigger and bigger all the time. The consumer is spending more money on meat than the rest of the population, and the consumer actually wants locally produced, sustainable food. That just sounds perfect to me. Like why are we not just getting behind this more and absolutely pushing it? Because it's a huge, it's a big market now. It's a market that's only going to get bigger. So really there needs to be some serious effort from the people who have the resources there to actually get out and do it. And all it would take would be like a major supermarket brand actually just to get behind it and say, look, this is what we're doing, this is what is it? And bring it into the, you know, because the majority of people get their food information from the supermarket and they need to. If it only takes a supermarket to get involved with it and say this is what we're doing, this is this fantastic product, forget about all your worries and all the stuff that you think is wrong with it actually, because it's true. I just think we're just missing a trick here. [00:50:36] Speaker D: Yeah, and look, it needs some government involvement at some point in terms of regulation because Australia, the Ministry of Primary Industries is involved. Australia and New Zealand, the ministries of primary industries are involved in regulating the halal. So we just need a bit of help from the top and we all need to contribute to it. Farmers, everybody needs to realize the importance of the market and then see if the people who make the right decisions can support the regulation of it. [00:51:12] Speaker A: There's definitely some, some light to the end of the tunnel if. I know it's a bit of a, it's a flicker because looking at like you did an article recently on farmers in Farmers Weekly, a mainstream farming magazine about the halal market. You spoke at Oxford farming conference this year as well. And I think like us talking about it here and I hope I going to encourage more conversation in future. Even seeing restaurants like Nando's, they are Nando's branches like Halal, KFC, subway. So yeah, I think it's the way the world is going now. It's 2024, we should just be in a situation where as many people as fossil are catered for. That just makes life easy for everyone in my opinion. So yeah, look, we don't want to take. [00:52:05] Speaker D: Oh God, just a last bit there. I know prices are high now. People are complaining that look, land prices are going crazy, but the muslim community has been experiencing this and the general population are not aware of this. So during Kurbani last year, we paid on average 300 pounds for our lamb carcasses. For Kurbani, 300 pounds. If you ask the general consumer, maybe the general consumer hasn't done this for a long time, but we do it. And that also explains the fact that a Muslim is prepared to pay a premium for products if it meets their religious requirement, because assurance is very, very important. So I think, look, anybody listening to this, whether you are in government, whether you are a politician, whether you are somebody who is involved in policy, the halal market needs proper discussion and we need to be objective. I always say we need to look at the numbers, we need to be objective. We shouldn't politicize it, we shouldn't be scared to get involved in the discussion. And it is something that is supporting the UK economy. We should come to the table and see how we can support the market. [00:53:23] Speaker A: And rather than relying on two spikes in a year, during the two Ramadans and whatever, you can have a stable all throughout the year, because just say, if you're paying 300 quid like these farmers, that would bite your hand off for that. [00:53:42] Speaker D: The export market, I just showed you the price in Dubai, it's huge. So domestic export, it's a growing market. [00:53:53] Speaker A: Go on, Chris. [00:53:54] Speaker B: No, no, no. I was. I was just saying I would take the 300. [00:54:00] Speaker A: I would too, to be fair. Yeah. [00:54:03] Speaker C: What do we get for a joke? Just get swayed? [00:54:07] Speaker B: I'll do you one for 295. [00:54:13] Speaker A: Oh, thank you so much for coming on, man. And, yeah, like, I've got a bit of paper here written. So much stuff written I've learned this evening. I hope our listeners learn something too. And it starts a conversation. I think, in future, be good to see, let's say this time next year, whether anything's changed or once this spike of high land prices and mutton prices drops, we see where the farmers will start rethinking at catering for the halal market, not just waiting for two times in a year. That's the only time you hear some of these farmers mention Ramadan or Kobani. So, yeah, thank you so much, Ryan, and hopefully the rest of your Ramadan is good. [00:55:04] Speaker C: Yeah. Cheers. Thank you. [00:55:06] Speaker B: Thank you. [00:55:06] Speaker A: Thank you. [00:55:08] Speaker D: Cheers.