Its Coming Home ( obviously, it didn't)

[00:00:01] Speaker A: Hello and welcome to another episode of a free, pronged podcast, series two. We're cracking on with them now. So when we set up this podcast, the one thing we wanted to do was not only talk to people from agriculture and farming and all the other related stuff, we also thought we'd like to talk to people that probably have not much connection with farming, but have an interest because they eat food. So this evening we've got on Tom Fordyce. So Tom is somebody that many of you will know. So, Tom's had a long and illustrious career in sports journalism, starting off with the BBC, which basically he's just told us, started by going on a drunken tour around France and a bus with his mate. And from those foundations he's built a very successful career. And recently he left the BBC a couple of years ago to sort of paddle his own canoe. And you may know him from such podcasts as the Geraint Jones one, Joe Marla one, which obviously I had the great pleasure of being on, and a couple of other ones as well, I expect. So, Tom. So thank you very much for coming along this evening, Tom. [00:01:13] Speaker B: It's nice to see you all. I know it's taken us a while to get here, Neil. Our diaries were busy, but we've made it happen, even if it is late at night. It doesn't feel that late because it's a June evening and there is still some daylight in the sky. [00:01:24] Speaker A: It still looks nice outside. It still cold. [00:01:27] Speaker B: It probably looks nice than it is having just been out in it. You've been chasing pigs more recently than I've been outside, so you can probably give us a better update on conditions. [00:01:36] Speaker C: Well, I'm sweating, so it's quite warm for me. [00:01:42] Speaker A: Five spends as well. So going on with the. As we like to start all our shows with the good, the bad and the ugly. So I'm going to drop out this week. So who's going to take the good? [00:01:55] Speaker C: I'd say the ugly. [00:01:56] Speaker A: You're going to take the ugly. [00:01:58] Speaker B: I did have an ugly. Can we double ugly or is the format double ugly? [00:02:04] Speaker A: Chris, what you going for? [00:02:05] Speaker D: You've got choices good on there. On the week that the euros start, as any sports fan, we're full of optimism. Everyone's going around saying it's coming home. We've got probably, on paper, the best squad. So, yeah, like many, I am fully behind the boys. Probably going to be disappointed when we get knocked out in the quarters or the semis on penalties, but I'm not going to think like that tonight. I am positive. And, yeah, it's great. It's great when the country comes together and unites behind one cause. And I think before Ball's been kicked, I think we're all behind the boys. And, yeah, let's hope we can bring it home. [00:02:52] Speaker A: And obviously this podcast goes out to the other regions in the UK. I'd like to step in and say good luck to Scotland. I won't say good luck to Wales and follow our prime minister, because that would be a massive mistake. [00:03:07] Speaker D: I can tell you one thing for sure, they're not wishing us good luck. So I don't see the point in us wishing them good luck. [00:03:13] Speaker A: I'm just trying to be nice, brav. What's your ugly? [00:03:20] Speaker C: I'm back to my old routine of chasing pigs back in at least once a week. It started off with 24 being on the road on Saturday night. I was chasing them until half eleven at night, and I had some yesterday and some today. So, yeah, I hope this stops. [00:03:40] Speaker A: I did see your social media at night with your pig chasing. [00:03:48] Speaker C: It's not fun anymore. [00:03:50] Speaker B: Flav looks exhausted. [00:03:53] Speaker A: He's very tired. And what about you? What's your. What's your ugly, Tom? [00:03:58] Speaker B: Well, this is. This really is quite an ugly one. I'm going to share something personal with you. So last week I had a colonoscopy. I don't know if any of the three of you have ever had a colonoscopy. Let's not even get to the bit where they're basically sticking a camera up your ass before you even get to the point where they stick a camera up your ass. They have to make sure there is nothing up there to obstruct the view. So 24 hours before you go in, you're given this powder to mix up in your, like, your milkshake protein shaker. It doesn't taste great. When then nothing really happens for about 40 minutes. And then you get sort of a sense of uncertainty, and then things start to happen. Things start to happen. There's a clip that I've subsequently been sent where Billy Connolly talks about his colonoscopy and the big. The great clear out before the great invasion. And he describes sitting on the toilet and it being like someone, you know when you've got a hose on full blast, but no one's holding onto the end of the hose, and it's just. That's pretty much what it was like. So that is the ugly for me. [00:05:03] Speaker D: Jesus Christ. [00:05:04] Speaker A: I can beat that, because unfortunately, last year I had to have a front colonoscopy. If that makes sense. [00:05:10] Speaker B: Yes. Up the two one way valves. [00:05:13] Speaker A: Yes. They found, for whatever reason, blood in my urine, and they were concerned that I might have bladder cancer, let's be honest. And luckily I didn't. But, yeah, I went to the hospital thinking, I'm just going to go and chat to a surgeon. And I waited and I went into the urology department, walked into a room and I can laugh about it now, I just walked in to find like a bed there, two nurses and a bloke sitting at a desk. And I'm thinking, nah, there ain't going to be any talking today. I'm not going to go into the rest of the detail. But I left a different man also. But luckily it was all good. [00:05:53] Speaker C: So were you knocked out or away? [00:05:56] Speaker B: No. [00:05:56] Speaker A: And they said, do you want to watch? [00:05:58] Speaker B: I was like, absolutely not, no way, I'm good. [00:06:03] Speaker A: Thank you for watching. Yeah, no, it's brutal. So, anyway, moving on from colonoscopies and the front colonoscopies, Tom, so you're somebody that obviously works in sports journalism for a long, long time, and I've met you a couple of times now, and you're somebody that obviously takes care of yourself, you're into running. Health and fitness is really, really important to you. So when you're sort of like, you're doing all of this sort of health and fitness, where does. Are you thinking about when you eat? Let's just start on that. [00:06:43] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a very good question. I think a lot of time, obviously, the more exercise you do is nice because you can get away with eating more, number one, can't you? You've got that really nice relationship where your body requires calories and there'll be a certain point in the day. I could run early on today. I did about an hour's intervals and I had a decent sized lunch about 3 hours later. Two, 3 hours later, I was really hungry. And, you know, that way, and you'll know this because you're working agriculture and you're on your feet all day and it's a physical job, that sort of righteous hunger you get when your body's going, come on, I don't want to play games, I want another proper meal. So I think as you. But as you get older, I think when you're younger, you're a bit more, a bit more gung ho, aren't you, about your diet, because you can't ever see the end coming and you can't see illness and you just feel totally invulnerable to everything. As you get older. I'm 50 now, you start thinking, what would happen if I did this? And you try a few different dietary things, don't you? I tend to find I eat more in winter, like all of us, when it's cold and it's dark and in summer you're out and about a bit more. But as you know, Neil, I am, and I'm going to say this knowing that I'm in a safe place and there'll be no booing from the other guests on the pod. I'm a vegetarian. I'm officiating vegetarian. Now, this is slightly controversial in my wider family because my mum's side of the family are all farmers and they're all working agriculture. So my mum grew up on a farm out on the Essex marshes that was an arable farm and a dairy farm. And when I was a kid, I would spend lots of time on my grandparents farm, which is out in a place called Burnham on Crouch, out in deepest Essex. So most of the extended family have roles in agriculture. Usual story. The eldest son got the. Because there was eight kids, the eldest son got the farm. The next son, what did he get? He got a combine, I think. I think he got the combine. The next brother became a butcher. The next brother worked in farming insurance, and that sort of dripped its way down through the family tree. So a lot of the family on my mom's side still work in farming or associated industries. So you can imagine what it's like when you're. Hey, well, I'm the black sheep. You can imagine what it's like, Chris, where you go to a family gathering. So another one of the uncles has got a hog roasting business. It's one of his sidelines. So I would go up. You'd go out to the hog roast, there'd be like a big old knees up in a barn somewhere, big bar set up behind the bales, and everyone's going up to get their hog roast and I'd go up and I'd get my bun in the first bit and then the pigs there and I'd go, what's the veggie option? And they just give me my applesauce and that'll be it. [00:09:27] Speaker A: Hog roasting business. Do you have a veggie off option? [00:09:32] Speaker C: Yeah, mate. You get a cater for everyone. Um, so I normally either do. [00:09:38] Speaker A: Uh. [00:09:38] Speaker C: Actually, no. I used to either do Halloumi and portobello mushroom. Yeah, nice, uh, falafel and hummus, until I did a hog roast when it was windy and the halloumi didn't crisp up, it looked boiled. So I said, I'm not doing Halloween hog roasts again. So now it's either pig or falafel and hummus. And it seems to go down well. [00:10:02] Speaker B: Yeah, I would take that. I think. I think when you go, you know, when you first see whole gross, there's a lot of excitement. Whole gross seems to go down very, very well with drunk people. I don't know why then if it's the fat, it's the crispiness, it's the aromas, you know, this sort of thing. It's the. If it makes an appearance late in a wedding happiness. The happiness around the wedding. Seriously. Got hog roast. Oh, get in. [00:10:23] Speaker A: Yeah, it is. You can't anywhere that's got a hog roast is just brilliant. It is like the future really is. So why are you a vegetarian? [00:10:34] Speaker B: So when I was a kid, so big farming family, big irish farming family, I think what probably happened there is. So I was one of five kids, let alone my mum be one of eight kids, and there was certainly just a feed us, just to fill us all up. So we probably got, with all due deference to my mum, who's, you know, a really good cook, we got a lot of food that was just there to fill you up. So a lot of cuts of meat that have since been rehabilitated. But when you're a kid, you don't necessarily like belly of pork. We used to have belly of pork quite a bit. So when you're a kid, that just feels like fatty meat, you know, that's what it seems like. There's a lot of mints, you know, again, just because you could stick a mince, anything, you could stick mashed potato, the mince, and fill up 500 kids, hungry kids. So I think there's some really nice meat in there as well. But when I went away to college, I first of all, didn't really miss meat. I mean, it's expensive when you're a student, isn't it? But I didn't really miss it. And because I ate fish, that was okay. And then I gradually started eating a bit less of it. And then it was almost like once I stopped eating it, then it sort of broke the connection with a meaty diet and it became a slightly stranger idea, the idea of eating meat. There weren't many male vegetarians at that point, so I went vegetarian when I was 21. So when was that? 90? Yeah, 94. 94. 95. And when I went traveling, when I went traveling around the world, sometimes it would be easy and sometimes it would be really hard. Like you went to even hopped across to Germany. And in Germany, apparently, ham isn't meat. Ham's not meat. South Africa, you can imagine what that's like. People just think you're insane. South America is really weird because in South America, obviously, in Argentina and Uruguay, massive beef producers and, you know, Chile, they love their meat as well. And I remember backpacking around those places and sometimes you turn up a little cafe and you say, soy vegetariano. And they'd look at you, be a nice old, nice old deer running the restaurant. And then she'd bring you a plate of pasta and she'd give you a little wink as she walked off, and you'd part the pasta and there's a massive great steak underneath it, and she'd just give you a little. Give you a little knot, so. And as you get older, I think all my family still eat meat. You know, as I say, there's a lot of farmers in the family. The question I had was, when I had kids, what did I do? Because my partner's vegetarian as well. And it was a really interesting decision and we decided to bring our kids up, eating everything as omnivores. Because for us, it had been a decision that we took when we were adults. And I sort of felt, well, maybe it should be the same for our kids, you know, I think it's good, probably good for kids to eat as much, as much a wider range of foods as they can. And you don't want fussy kids. And I was like, well, okay, the boys can eat what they like. You know, it's slightly easier from a protein point of view because kids aren't going to get loads of pulses and tofu down them, are they? But we thought we'd give them the choice. So they are now 13 and ten. The 13 year old big, strong boy prefers eating fish to meat, but he will have a bit of meat and the young one will eat whatever he can get his hands on. Here's a carnivore through and through. Anybody? [00:13:43] Speaker D: Okay, cooking meat? [00:13:45] Speaker B: Yeah, because I cook it for the boys and it's fine. It's. Do you know what it's. I think you probably get different sorts of vegetarians. I mean, like I say, for me, it started off as just a, I suppose a taste thing. And then I was quite happy with the range of foods that I could eat. I really enjoyed doing the. Doing the boys good chicken. I have found it interesting since I. Since I've become close friends with Mister Mahler, because obviously he loves his meat. And as Neil probably knows, when we do our recording days in the studio, we go out for a lunch and it's a massive lunch. Joe has two lunches to my one lunch and he likes a lot of meat. Some of my vegetarian friends are probably more radical than me. I think maybe because I grew up in a really dairy environment on a, you know, spending all their summer holidays and dairy farm. I still love dairy, I love milk. You know, I'd have milk any time of the day, full fat milk, because we used to drink unpasteurized milk on the farm. So I'm probably not the most radical of vegetarians. But I don't know, sometimes the arguments, particularly when you look at the cost of cheap meat, I think some of those arguments are still quite attractive to me. And maybe over the course of doing the Joe Miler show, when we talk to people like you, Neil, and we talk to Dom, obviously, our butcher, you know, I don't think I'll go back to meat, but I can see the argument of eating really well prepared good meat that has a positive effect on the environment. And I see that probably now as very different to mass produced cheap processed meat where there isn't that same care through the supply chain, the same care for the environment and the animals. [00:15:19] Speaker A: I think you make a really good point now, isn't it? Because it does just come down to like quality, doesn't it? You know, that's one thing we have this running theme throughout our podcast is talking to people who produce food and whether it's somebody you know. We've had arable farmers on here that produce quinoa and really high quality grains and vineyards to some people that are growing some fantastic meat as flav and crisp both do themselves. But it always comes down to quality and I think that's something that the public need to realize. And I think it's a real shame because people realise where the food comes from, this ultra processed, horrible, nasty stuff. And cheap meat is rubbish. It really is. And when you can go out and get some really, really good quality meat and it's not expensive, you can go to your local butchers and it's not expensive. [00:16:14] Speaker C: Not that expensive, not that much as take the place. [00:16:17] Speaker A: Yeah, it's not cheap, but you pay. [00:16:19] Speaker C: Places where they sell fillet of beef for 70 odd pound a kilo. Like what? It doesn't make any sense. I don't know what you'd have done, you'd have done to account to make it worth that much. [00:16:30] Speaker A: Well it's had its feature in by me, probably the farmers, like, looking to recoup some of that money. [00:16:39] Speaker C: I've got a question, Tom. [00:16:41] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:16:41] Speaker C: You mentioned there about in 1994, you're one of the few male vegetarians. Why is it that? And it's a conversation I've had with my partner Nikki, because when I met her first in 2020, she talked. She was vegetarian slash vegan. And I didn't tell her I was a farmer to. After talking to tell I was a pig farmer, after like three weeks in, I just said I was a farmer. And there's always this thing, even when you look at, like, historical tv adverts, like american ones, it's like, be a man, eat a steak, eat a big burger. And I don't know what, what your thoughts are about meat and sort of masculinity, because when you look in the wild, even lions, the females hunt, the male turns up. Unless it's like a big buffalo, like a giraffe, the male would just turn up to take his chunk and leave. So I don't know why for humans, it's assumed that manliness and carnivorousness are linked. [00:17:45] Speaker B: That is a really interesting point. I mean, when I was a kid, so my dad is now, he's in his early eighties, and he was that gen, that post war generation who grew up with rationing. So to him, you know, meat was a luxury. And then when meat was no longer a luxury, when he was, I guess in his sort of mid twenties, and then when I was growing up, then, I think his attitude was that it wasn't a proper meal unless he had a bit of meat on it. And he would eat all sorts. He was like, you know, he would eat liver on Thursdays, he'd have kidneys on toast. You know, it was proper old school meat eating. You know, we're not talking about steaks and stuff like that. We're talking about all sorts of meat. And I probably absorbed some of his, his feelings on it. But what I noticed now is, let's say I go out for dinner with some of my younger colleagues, is I think there's probably two things that have changed it. One is that people are. It's much easier to be vegetarian now, partly because all the plant based stuff, partly because I suppose it's, you know, it's. There are more vegetarians and therefore more places want to cater for you, but people are much more blase about it. Like, like, I. Even being a vegan when I was a kid, even being a vegetarian was rare. Like, vegan was super rare. And you seem to get more people now who are sort of hovering. It's not quite as black and white as it used to be. Flavor don't think, you know, I've got, I've got friends who will, you know, they will eat meat, but the majority of the time they will have plant based food and then the meat will be a real treat and it'll be a nice cut of meat maybe once or twice a week. So it doesn't seem like, like the battle lines are drawn. Like they maybe were in the, you know, in the late eighties and early nineties. And, you know, becoming a vegetarian might be quite a quite strong political statement for people. I think there is a, yeah, there is an in between area now where people will go, do you know what, for the, for various ethical reasons or for cost reads, whatever it is, four or five days of the week, I might, you know, or maybe two or three days a week, I might be vegetarian, I might fish a couple of nights and I might have meet a couple of nights and maybe that's, maybe that's where we're going to. I don't know. What do you think, Chris? [00:19:52] Speaker D: Yeah, I think for me, it's quite nice to talk to someone like you that is a vegetarian and your thoughts on it and explain why you are vegetarian. What sometimes frustrates me is it's probably both sides, both from the farming food community and from especially the vegan community that sort of constantly bash the other side. Oh, you're eating meat, you're destroying the planet and then farmers go, oh, well, yeah, you're not going to be, you're not going to get the protein needed. And being a vegan and it's, it's, it's stupid. I think for me, what you want to eat from your own morals and your own views is perfectly fine, but really it's not shoving it down sort of everybody's, everybody's necks and just making your own choices and going by that. I've got quite a few vegetarian friends and yeah, like we say, we always just make an effort, make sure there's something vegetarian for dinner that they can have and it doesn't mind and they never try and push me down that, oh, why do you eat meat? Why do you produce meat? And I think, yeah, really as a society we just need to be more understanding on each other's views on it and make your own choices. [00:21:16] Speaker A: No, definitely. I mean, my mum's vegetarian and has been vegetarian for about Christ knows, probably 40 years, something like that. Yeah. And she's a farmer's daughter and, you know, in and around farming her whole life and she, you know, she's got some real clear views on why she doesn't eat meat and I completely get it. So, you know, my mum, very similar to you in many ways, Tom, was. You know, she would quite happily cook me a shepherd's pie or something like that or whatever, but, but, um. But she would never eat it herself, you know, and, you know, to this day she's still vegetable. She didn't eat fish either, but, um. But yeah, it's, um. [00:21:56] Speaker B: It just. [00:21:57] Speaker D: Or even on a meat. On a. On a meat basis. So, like, me and flav both produce goat meat. And like, I'm from Cumbria. Cumbria is probably the most undiverse county in the country because apart from farming and the odd and sellafield, the nuclear place, there's not much sort of industry or business. So it's a very sort of traditional society. I remember I told my grandma that I was going to start producing goats for meat and she literally thought I'd lost the plot. I think if she could have put me in a mental asylum, she would have done. She just like, just discussed and even. Even like some other family members thought was mad until it went into a local food hall, cranstons, that they all. That some of them supply with beef and then it was fine. It was fine that it was in there and it's fine. And since my grandma has had it and enjoyed it. But yeah, it was just the fact. Oh, that isn't what. That isn't what you should eat. That isn't. Goat isn't something that's eaten here. It's tough and it's. Oh yeah, you don't eat that and. Yeah. So it's just a sort of interesting comparison. [00:23:08] Speaker B: What do you think? Like, this is a question I've got as a vegetarian and as someone who, as I say, my boys are omnivorous and seeing how sort of fashions for me, if that's the right phrase, have changed over the years. You know, I referenced how belly of pork was the cheap cut when I was a kid. I. And now it's been rehabilitated and, you know, there's all, obviously the snouts of tail stuff that St John's have done, you know, that sort of stuff. And this is a slightly strange way of putting it, but I was playing my boys a little while ago, a bit of chaz and Dave and rabbit came on and there's the line in rabbit, rabbit, rabbit, rabbit, rabbit, where Edith Chazzle Dave goes, she's got more rabbit than Sainsbury's. And my boys were baffled by this. They were like, why are they saying that? And I said, well, look, when this song came out in 1982, you could go to a supermarket and you could buy rabbit. [00:24:03] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:24:04] Speaker B: And they were absolutely astonished. So in your lifetimes, what changes have you seen there in terms of sort of meats that are produced and where are we going to end up in 1015 years, do you think? [00:24:17] Speaker C: I'd say as a, as an apprentice butcher, it is. You definitely see it at the, at the shop, on the counter. Because after, let's say, like on a. After people have watched James Martin or someone cooking a recipe, they'll turn up, say, can I have 400 grams of eggs? I'm like, I want a 400. There's a lady that every Friday she would have 227 grams of mince and 227 grams of diced beef. If it's 228, she kicks off. And he has to be exact. And I think, as you say, it's definitely like a trendiness or gentrification, whatever you want to call it, because currently oxtail is more expensive than brisket. How like, Oxtail is almost awful. Oxtail, kidney, liver is almost classed as awful. But I think when you've got chefs and restaurants, I think it's good for us, for us farmers. So the carcass balance, especially someone like me and Chris that sell directly, we're not selling to a wholesaler. We can get that money from. From, like the whole animal. Like, for me with pigs, like barely. I sell even trotters. People ask for trotters kidney. I sell pig's ear. You could dehydrate and give to make crackling or give it to dogs. And I think the, the point you make about rabbit, I think that's coming back because when it's in season, farm shops sell rabbit. There's deer someplace. Even sell squirrel, pigeon. And I think where agriculture is going and the lack of space and people saying about environmental, we are going to get to a point where people start eating insects in this country. I think at some point that will happen. Even I'd say, I don't think we're gonna get en masse rabbit farming like you do in other countries because I think we're to. This country's too soft. I should say it's the same for goats. Like, like Chris is saying, people, people struggle with the concept of eating goat, whereas in Kenya, apart from chicken, go to the unluckiest animal when there's a party, because that's the first thing you think of. [00:26:33] Speaker D: Yeah, it's hard, isn't it? It's really. It's the whole thing about being a food producer is really adapting to your consumers. So like, we've got to keep adapting to where. To where consumer habits are going. You look at chicken, for example, in China, the most valuable part of a chicken is the feet, like so. And we sort of export it. And for example, just going on to beef in Cumbria, speaking to a good friend of mine, has a butchery business up here and I'm obviously involved in wagyu cattle and we're going for a marbled product, so fattier product, because obviously that's where a lot of chefs and top chefs and restaurants want that extra flavour, the monounsaturated good fats. And then in Cumbria, if you put six rib eye steaks out in most places, they would leave the fatty steak. So it's really just adapting to who your consumer, finding who your consumers are and producing a product that they want and being able to adapt to it. [00:27:53] Speaker A: It's. Yeah, no, definitely. I think you make a good point there, Chris, isn't it? Because people. I think people now have this view that they want their, their meat especially to be like fat free. And actually fat makes meat taste really good. We've got a vegetarian on the, on the, you know, Tom can't really explain convey that very well, but, but it does, you know, and again, it's. It's this whole. It comes back to ultra manufactured process food and you can have a piece of state that's been ultra manufacturers and producers trimmed to it to an inch of its life. But no, that's. I think you've given us an insight there, Tom, into why. Why you're. Why you're a vegetarian. [00:28:32] Speaker C: And I've got a question for Tom before we. I'll go ahead, take an exit. What's your thoughts on the use? I saw a story today in one of the farming magazines about whether they should bandaid plant based foods being called meat related names like things like Thakin or. Personally, if I was, I think I could give up meat. If I was to be given a choice, either meat or fish, I'd pick fish or one or the other forever. I'd pick fish, probably. [00:29:08] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:29:08] Speaker C: But I think if I was to be a vegetarian. What's that? [00:29:12] Speaker D: You lucky I'm not. [00:29:13] Speaker C: I'm not genuinely, genuinely, Chris. Now, listen, listen to it over summer, if you have a good barbecue session on the weekend. I don't eat meat all week because I get meated out. I binge on it and I just get, like, pork. I've eaten chicken so much at a wedding before that I didn't eat chicken for a month because I was sick. Like, I remember when I was a kid, I ate so much chicken at my dad's friend's wedding, I couldn't eat chicken from home. So what? Fish? I can eat fish every day. Seafood? Ikea. I can eat that every day. So if I was to go vegetarian, I wouldn't touch any meat, any fake whatever. I just want pulses. I'd want indian cuisine, thai and all sorts. So what's your thoughts on that? Because I find if someone wants to eat meat, just eat meat. Don't call someone a vaga. It's not a burger. It's, I don't know, falafel. [00:30:07] Speaker B: It's a really interesting one. And I think it maybe depends on where you are, on your sort of. If you are going to become a vegetarian on your journey and your reasons for becoming vegetarian. So I suppose if it's. If it's more about a texture thing, then you're going to be quite keen on a plant based stuff which has the same textures as you're used to. But for me, like, there's certain characteristics of some meat that you just don't find replicated in the vegetarian cookbook. You know, you don't really get that fibrous thing that you get, you get with pork. It's nothing really, that replicates lamb. I don't think. I mean, you know, chicken, maybe you can shape tofu into pretty much anything. So I find it a little bit strange, but I think maybe some people who have stepped away from meat for a different reason might find it an easier. An easier transition. [00:30:56] Speaker C: Transition. [00:30:57] Speaker B: I think, to be honest, flav, I'm with you. Like, I think when I enjoy vegetarian cooking, I think it's when it really embraces what it wants to be and it uses different flavors and it uses different textures, and it doesn't try to breed something it's not. And particularly when you look at cultures where vegetarian cuisine has been dominant, like, when you look at cooking from Southeast Asia, then you get an understanding that there is this vast range of different textures and flavors and things like that. So why try and do a fake version of something that you're not, when you could do a really tasty, interesting, healthy version of something else? But maybe if people are really missing meat, then that. And I think, to be honest, it feels to me a bit more like 20 years ago when you'd get when you'd get faken and stuff like that. And I have had, I went to a festival last summer and we were in a campervan and, you know, I was only vegetarian there and I was cooking breakfast and I was cooking bacon for some people and I had some fake and it was all a bit daft because it was even like colored to look like bacon and it just, it just wasn't bacon. I was like, I'll just have an egg butter, that's fine. Do you know what I mean? You were either going to eat bacon or you weren't going to eat bacon. Weight this sort of weird pretend bacon. [00:32:08] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, definitely, definitely does. It's, I don't, I don't get it. One of my, one of my daughters actually is vegetarian as well. At eleven, she decided two years ago she's going to be a vegetarian. And, and fair play to her, she stuck to it and she eats fish and she has dairy and, but, you know, sometimes you be in the supermarket and you're like, you know, it makes it difficult because I eat meat, the other girls eat, my partner eats meat and, you know, a couple, you know, you've got a cook for her separately and sometimes she's like, betsy, just, just go and choose something with you and she'll come back with some like ultra processed something in a packet. And I'm like, do you know what? Just go and pop that back and I'll get you some salmon, you know, something like that. Because just eat something that's proper food rather than that. Ultra processed. [00:32:52] Speaker B: Yeah, I think so. [00:32:54] Speaker A: Whatever what it is. So, Tom, so, like, moving away from food and all the rest of it, you've got a long, illustrious career, I think, in sports journalism. So, like, really, do you ever sort of like, think to yourself, how have I ended up here? How have I ended up, like, you know, you ghost writing a couple of, you know, autobiographies, you know, you've obviously doing the stuff with Joe Marlowe and Garrett Thomas and other stuff and you think yourself, well, how did this happen? [00:33:26] Speaker B: Yeah, definitely a lot of the time. I mean, when I was a kid, I didn't get, I mean, I'd go and watch football with my dad, but, you know, I didn't get to go to Twickenham, I didn't get to go to lords because it was either you couldn't get tickets or it was too expensive. Never got tickets, Wimbledon. So there was a point where I was starting out where I was just, I couldn't believe that you were actually getting paid to just go to this stuff. And I was. It was almost like this weird trick where you're waiting for someone to go, hang on, hang on a second. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. What's happening here? And do you know, when I started off, I remember sneaking in. I was working for a kid sports magazine and I used it to get tickets for pretty much every game of Twickenham I could and I would do a little match report, but fundamentally, I didn't really need to be there for the kids sports magazine, but I just wanted to go and I just wanted to absorb it all. I couldn't believe I was in there. And I looked around and I could see older journalists, maybe 1560s, who had lost the magic. You could tell that it was just a job to them. And I remember looking and thinking, how can that ever come to pass? And that didn't happen to me. That didn't happen to me. This is when I was sort of chief sportswear at the BBC. But there was a point where I could see how it could happen to people and it was a bit of a scary moment for me. And it was one of the reasons why I moved away from the BBC and set up the podcast company with a couple of colleagues, because I never wanted to lose that sense of excitement I had when I was a 21 year old kid. 22 year old kid. Like the first time I sat on Centre Court at Wimbledon, I watched it on tv as a kid all the time. I couldn't believe I was there. And I got really lucky with the period that I was chief sports writer. I mean, I saw Andy Murray. I was sitting on Centre Court and Andy Murray won Wimbledon twice. I watched England win the Ashes down under. I've seen England in England rugby team in three World cup finals. I was on the finish line at London 2012. Literally just above the finish line. You know, I'd run from the veladro. Yeah. I mean, I saw Usain Bolt in Beijing when he broke the world record. I saw him set two world records in Berlin. The one and the two. It was ludicrous. And the miracle of Medina, which I know Chris, you're going to hate me for. [00:35:37] Speaker D: Yeah, I'm great about that. [00:35:39] Speaker B: I watched England win Cricket World cup, the one day World cup in 2019. I was there commentating as Geraint won the tour, you know, as a mate won the tour. I was in the commentary box. It was nuts. So there was definitely a sense of, I probably got the best decade that british sports ever had there. And I could, like I said, I hadn't lost the magic, but I never wanted to be that, that 50 year old, six year old who was just like, ah, this is just a job. Because it's not just a job. And maybe the 17th time you go into Wimbledon, Wimbledon never changes. That's part of the secret of it. It's not going to feel the same as it does the first time you go in there. And that's normal. We will get used to things. But, yeah, I never wanted to lose that sense of wonder. I never wanted to lose that sense of pinching myself, of wanting to say to the seven year old me or the ten year old me or the 13 year old me, whatever it was, look where we are. Look where we are. And it was, to be honest, that was always. There was always a point. No matter how many pieces you wrote or how many bits of audio you did for five live, how many hours of commentary or chat you did, there was always a point where something would happen and you'd have to open a word document and you'd have 2 hours to write 1200 words. And no matter how many times you did it, there'd always be this sense of. But you always get it done. And then when you did it and you made a connection with your audience, because that was always the thing you were trying to. You weren't telling people how it was, you were trying to get a sense of, this is what it was like, wasn't this amazing? Or be as the sort of bridge between them watching at home and you being there and when you got it right, it was just such a fantastic feeling, you know, whether it was super Saturday in 2012 or. Yeah, Murray Ronnie, Wimbledon for the first time, or Medina, whatever it was, if you. If you were there and you managed to capture what it was like to be there, but in a way that the part of you that had grown up a fan and was still a fan, it was just. It was wonderful. It was fantastic. [00:37:33] Speaker C: So what's the tactic in doing 1200 ones in 2 hours? Do you smash it and then go back and spell check, or do you spell check as it goes along? [00:37:42] Speaker B: Or you haven't got time to review you, basically, you've got a note, you've got to work out where you're going, work out what you want to say. If you know what you want to say, it's easy. So basically, 1200 words is probably six points, 200 words per point. Your intro's got to be brilliant, because if your intro is no good, no one's going to bother reading the remaining 1100 words. So put your best line at the top, either the most interesting point or the most startling point, bring it full circle and then just know where you're going. So let's start with Twickenham, because I spent a lot of time at Twickenham and you've watched an England game file your match report on the whistle. So that's 800 words of what's happened. And you go down into the barrels and you do the press conferences, have a chat with some of the players or Eddie Jones, whoever it might be, and then the clock will be ticking. So it's like, okay, what's the most interesting thing here? What's everyone going to be talking about in the pub tonight or tomorrow morning? What we were going to be reflecting on. And then you'd sort of sense check it in your head and then you go, okay, right, so that's the most important .2 hundred words here, 200 words here. And you could actually write really quickly. And you had this internal critic, and if it was going wrong, it was almost like someone was prodding you, just going, you sure? You sure? And you got to trust that internal critic. And if it was going well, it was like being in a, in a sailing boat with all the sails full of air, you just went because you knew exactly what you wanted to say. So it was always. It was always a challenge, but you could have days where it just happened and, you know, you knew you were writing good pieces when you were writing good pieces. It was a really, really nice feeling. And sometimes you would file it back to the office and you just had this massive sense of excitement because in that secret place inside you, you'd got it right and you could not wait to see what people thought. You know, you knew that people you'd hopefully made that connection between you and people you knew who were watching it and you were really looking forward to seeing what either. What the comments might be or what the social media might say. You just thought, I think I've got this one right. It was a great feeling. [00:39:43] Speaker D: You've talked about, like the medinas and Murray at Wimbledon. Is there anything that you've been to or attended that, like, sort of under, under the radar bent where, like, it's not been like massive news, where you've just thought, this is sport at its very best and it's just. [00:40:02] Speaker B: Yeah, that is a great. That's a great question, Chris. I think you could find fascination. You realize that if you, you know, Neil, the line we've got on the, on the Joe show, which is everyone, is interesting, if you ask the right questions. [00:40:14] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:40:15] Speaker B: Which is. Which is something that both Joe and I believe, you know, it's that if you are interested in the world, and the world is an interesting place, I think, Chris, the same. The same is true for sports. Like, it might not be a sport you grew up with or that you ever played, but once you got into the characters who were doing it and the personalities and their motivations and their rivalries and the mechanics of the sport, like elite sport is really fucking hard. You know, people might make it look easy, but if you've ever tried to play snooker on a full size snooker table, everyone will go, oh, my God, it's horrific. It's ludicrous, isn't it? [00:40:49] Speaker A: You know, quite a big bloke. And like, I'm like, no, forget it. Just ain't happening. [00:40:58] Speaker B: Yeah. So I think. I think, Chris, it was, if you didn't find something interesting, the fault was probably with you for not caring enough of not trying to. Not talking to people and not understanding it and not going, why is he doing this? Well, let me have a go. Yeah. Fucking hell. That's really hard. And why do you hate you? And why does this person the best, and why that person you had, if you immerse yourself in it, then it was. It was always fascinating, whatever it was you're watching. [00:41:22] Speaker D: Yeah, that's very true. Like, I grew, obviously, NFL, for example, has really grown in popularity here, and I just never understood the rules. And I had an injury maybe six or seven years ago and I was sort of in bed watching tv and that rarely really happens. And I just started watching documentaries and just got so into it and then met other people that I think that's the thing, isn't it? It's finding other people that share your passion for sport and once you find people that you can talk about key issues and things that are going on, that. That is the. That is the beauty of sport, really. It's talking about it with the other people that share the same passion as you. [00:42:08] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And I never, you know, this idea that sport doesn't really matter because this is something you end up thinking about quite, quite a lot when your whole life is sport. You know, if you do an ashes tour, there's a point where after about six weeks, you suddenly have this moment. You can think, I've talked about nothing but cricket for six weeks. Every single conversation I've had has been about, oh, right, what's the ball going to do in Adelaide? Or. Right, if you actually, you know, what does Shane Warden do? It. Everything is about tiny nuances, it. And then you think, actually, there's a lot more important things going on in the world. But I got a mate who used to work in media for the Labour Party when they were in power. And I said this to him once because he was doing important stuff. He was doing stuff around the NHS, he was doing stuff around education. And I said to him once, I said, look, you're doing something that actually changes people's lives. I'm just dicking about with sport. And he went, yeah, but it's not just dicking about. He said, sport is the stuff that people love. Okay, so there are more important stuff, but you're dealing with something. It's like working in music, isn't it? You know, this is the stuff that defines us. This is the stuff that we look forward to at weekends or mid weeks and, you know, these. The big sporting events that we go to. We might go with friends or our parents when we were younger and then we take our kids. You know, these sport creates days. If you love sport, sport creates the days that you don't forget, doesn't it? The days that bring you together. [00:43:27] Speaker A: That's exactly what it does, isn't it? I think Chris, you know, said at the beginning of the pod about, you know, looking forward to the euros. It does bring you, you know, completely together. It really does, like, you know, and you get behind, whether it's your. Your football team, and, you know, I support Birmingham City, unfortunately, there's not much to get behind them, really, at the moment. But it's. But when you're there, it's brilliant. It's the best thing in the world. You know, watching your team score a goal is brilliant. Watching England score a try is the best thing. You know, it really does, isn't it? Because whatever else is going on in the world, no matter what's happening, it's gone. Yeah, that 80 minutes or 90 minutes or wherever it is, or a day start watching. Well, day watching crickets, a bit different, because generally that starts off remembering stuff and by the end of it you can't remember. [00:44:16] Speaker C: It's a bit similar to rugby, to be fair. [00:44:19] Speaker A: Yeah, that is true. But it's. [00:44:21] Speaker B: There's a lot to be said for that escape, Neil, isn't there? There's a lot to be said, like, you know, we can all. We've all got areas of our lives that need our attention. We've all got areas of our lives that can be difficult sometimes, you know, whether it's. Whether it's work, whether it's family stuff, you know, relationships, whatever. And I think embracing sport as an escape, not saying it doesn't matter, but saying, look, it does matter precisely because it enables us to be different. It enables us, you know, I always say to my little brother, the only time that me and my little brother really hug is when we're watching Wednesday and we score a goal, and then you just, you're climbing all over each other, you know, you jump in each other's arms, and it's not fake. It's real. It's just. That's the moment when you can express it. And I think that is a really. [00:44:58] Speaker D: Yeah, yeah. [00:45:00] Speaker A: It's not a regular occurrence. [00:45:02] Speaker B: Happens twice a year. [00:45:03] Speaker A: Yeah, it's. No, it does. Sport is brilliant. And like you say, like we said earlier about, you know, talking to people and, like, I think the one thing that I think with podcasts and why podcasts, some podcasts are so, you know, good and people like it is because it's that. It's that half an hour, an hour, whatever it might be of pure. I'm listening to this. Whatever else is going on, it doesn't matter. Especially, like, the one you did with Joe is, you know, it's brilliant because, you know, learn about. You learn about something they have absolutely nothing, no idea about. And that's so, so good. [00:45:44] Speaker C: Some of the ones I've listened to, I'm like, halfway through, I'm like, what? How did I get it? At the end, you tell someone about it, they look at like. Like, I remember where I used to work as a, as a butcher. I'd say to them one day, let's listen to each podcast as a group of us. And they're like, what? How did you get to someone just listen. Then you finish an episode, and they all will listen to the others. So, yeah, I think, like you say, the whole thing about asking, asking the right questions is definitely a thing, because sometimes you ask someone a question, even in public, they'll give you one answer. But you ask the same question in a different way, and you get a 510 minutes answer. [00:46:20] Speaker B: Yeah. So, yeah, well, I think doing that pod as well, Neil. I mean, you know, you've come to see us in this due date, and it was, it was, you know, it was lovely having you there. I think sometimes, without getting too pretentious about it, you know, you can look, you can look around the world and there's a lot of really fucking bad things happening. And you can have this assumption that the majority of people are bad people or that the world is an unpleasant place, but when we do those, you know, those recording days, you know, we have our three guests in one day. I think out of the 100 and 5160 we've done, there was one person we didn't really get on with, but almost everyone else has been someone, a complete stranger before you met them, who you got on really well with and you found interesting and you got an insight into their life and then you felt like you could understand where they were coming from. And that is a great feeling. When you leave the recording studio another day like that, it just sort of reminds you that the vast majority of people in the world are good people and you can get on with them. [00:47:14] Speaker A: No, no, definitely, definitely it does. And it also, I think what it does something like that. It actually makes somebody like not blowing smoke up his ass. Joe, very connectable, you know, people, you know, can connect to him and see him. And I think it almost makes me feel like, you know, they are his friend. [00:47:32] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:47:32] Speaker A: Because the way it comes across, it is. [00:47:36] Speaker D: Joe, please let me on your podcast again. [00:47:39] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I messaged him tonight and I said, joe, do you want to come on? And he ignored me. So that's it, Joe, I'll give you a shout out. Yeah, yeah, I did message him. I thought he could pop up for a ten minute sort of appearance, but he's obviously packing his bag to go to Japan. [00:48:02] Speaker B: He's going into camp. Yeah, he is. But that point, that point Joe makes it look very easy. But Joe is the only person I've seen who can tell people to fuck off and no one, they're not offended. You know, he can tell. He can tell a 7th woman, he can look and go fuck off. And people don't find it offensive because he is completely himself, he's completely genuine, he's got no heirs and graces. He's quite honest about his own failings and struggles. He's impossible not to get on with, isn't he? [00:48:30] Speaker A: No. Yeah, absolutely impossible to not get on with at all, really. I can't imagine you really sort of falling out of it. No. [00:48:41] Speaker C: I reckon you should have a breather now, Neil. After loving Joe so much, I'm going to ask Tom a question. [00:48:46] Speaker A: Well, fuck Joe, because he didn't come on, so he can get fucking. [00:48:51] Speaker C: If you hadn't worked in media, Tom, or now ended up in podcasting, which is related to media, what would you have done if you had to go back again? What career would you have that? Would you go into farming and follow the family family lines or what? Yeah. What do you think you'd do? [00:49:07] Speaker B: I do think about this quite a lot, flav, because particularly the way the Joe show is and you hear about different ways of making a living. I'd be so shit at so many things. The number of things I would be absolutely rubbish at is frightening, you know? And I think that sometimes when, you know, when I'm doing what I'm doing, I'm thinking my skill base is so narrow. I mean, what? Yeah, podcasts are ideal because I can just sit around and chew the fat with people. Like, that's not a job. That's just what people do on the bus or in the pub. I'd be terrible at so many things. I'm awful with numbers. I mean, I like, you know, I work quite hard on stuff I enjoy, but, you know, it's like if you don't enjoy something, I mean, I couldn't. Yeah, I'd be terrible at. You know, I'm terrible in office. I like wearing whatever clothes I want to wear. Don't really like sitting down for too long. I'll be. Honestly, the number of careers I would be so shit at, flav. [00:50:03] Speaker C: Not farming. Not farming, then. [00:50:06] Speaker B: Well, I don't. I mean, what. Which bit of farming? You guys know this better than me. I mean, I'd end up doing what you're doing. I'd end up doing a podcast about farming or writing about farming, wouldn't I? That's what I'd have to do. [00:50:16] Speaker C: I don't think a job on a farm where you don't like, well, you can wear what you want on a farm. So that would be a tick job where you don't like sitting down. So not in a tractor. He said he didn't. You don't like numbers? Yeah. There's many jobs you can do without numbers. I guess a stock person, that probably just does. [00:50:39] Speaker A: It's all going to go down the road of goats in a minute. You want. [00:50:43] Speaker B: Am I going to be a goat man? [00:50:44] Speaker A: Yeah. Recurring theme on this podcast and that. And our logo has a goat on a bale because these two boys here have goats and they are, like, trying week in, week outs. Convinced me to buy goats. [00:50:59] Speaker C: You're gonna buy goats soon. [00:51:03] Speaker D: On a previous guest, before we came, I tried to get him to buy a chicken shed. [00:51:09] Speaker A: Yeah, that was true. Yeah. We're trying to sell anything, but I'm nothing. I'm not going to buy any fucking goats. So it will go. Flav is basically going to say, tom, you would make a really, really good goat man. So, well, on that, I'm going to. [00:51:26] Speaker D: Ask Tom before we. Is it coming home? [00:51:33] Speaker B: The odds are against it coming home, Chris. I think it's more likely to go back to France or Germany, but you never know. You never know. Look, my dad was very lucky. He was a young man in London eating his cuts of meat in 1966 and before the World cup began, he got a block of tickets for every game at Wembley and it didn't cost him very much. So he saw every single game in the 96 World cup played by England, including the final. And every time that England get knocked out of a tournament, he sends pretty much the same message to the family of WhatsApp group, which is, I hope that one day you lot get to see what soul. [00:52:15] Speaker C: Issue, though. Like, what is the issue with. I've always asked myself this question, because you can't say they don't have the passion, because I hope they do. I think they do. And, like, the amount of money that's in FA, so they've got everything. And so I've never understood why England don't do well. [00:52:38] Speaker B: We could do an entire series of podcasts on this, but my short answer would be that international football is now incredibly competitive in a way that it wasn't before. You've now got a situation where all the players play against all the other players all the time. So there are no secrets in international football. Whereas even if you go, the first World Cup, I remember was 1982, and I'd never seen Palo Rossi, who was the top scorer for Italy. I'd never seen Zico, who was the superstar for Brazil. I've never seen Maradona because there was the European cup, but most overseas players stayed at home. So I think there is a level of competition that there hasn't been before. I mean, just in terms of the number of teams now in international tournaments, the euros used to be 16 teams and it's just crept up and up and up. So it's more matches. I think one of the problems for England is the duration and the intensity of the Premier League season. Yeah, you get the end of season and most top players have been playing Premier League, European Cup, Champions League. Rather. They've played FA cup, they've played an extraordinary number of games. And you get to June and they're knackered. They're knackered. We play more games at higher intensity. And even though the Premier League is not as competitive as it once was, most games in the Premier League are more competitive than they are in. In La Liga or in the Bundesliga or in Serie A, if you're a top player for Real Madrid or a top player for Barcelona, you get four or five tough games a season, you know, El Clasco and then Atletico Madrid. A lot of the other games aren't even close. Bayern Munich, until this year, totally dominant. Same in Italy with Juve. So I think there is that level for England players of just day after day, week after week, intense matches and you get to someone. There's not always that much left. [00:54:29] Speaker D: Look, as well, to win a major tournament, you need. [00:54:33] Speaker B: Look, yeah, I think you probably need a couple of players who are at the absolute peak. And it is possible for England this time. Harry Kane is probably the best at what he does. His particular version of being a striker. He's probably the best in the world of that. Bellingham is a game changer. Sacr is a fantastic player. I think we are probably a little bit short in defence. I think we would like more options there. I think Southgate has probably done the right thing by going, do you know what? I'm going to give some of these youngsters a chance. I'm going to give mania a chance. I'll build the team around Maine and Bellingham and Saka, but we shall see. You never know. I mean, worst teams in England have won major tournaments quite recently. [00:55:17] Speaker A: Fingers crossed that England bring it home. That would be good. And on that positive note of England winning the euros, I just like to thank Tom for your time this evening and hopefully it's not been there. Yeah, you know, it's not been too bad and. Yeah, thanks again. [00:55:35] Speaker B: Well, listen, thanks for having me. I'm really glad I. Come on. Thanks for being patient as we sorted out a date. Neil, Chris, Flav, thanks for having me on your pod. I've really enjoyed it. It's been a lot of fun. [00:55:46] Speaker C: Thank you. [00:55:49] Speaker A: Well, that was a fantastic and different podcast, I think you can say, for recorded there. All the ones we've done so far have all been farming central and we've just spent an hour talking to somebody that has roots in agriculture but is very, very much not part of it. [00:56:10] Speaker D: Yeah, definitely. I think it's just. It's just good to get other people's perspective on it. And again, yeah, like we've mentioned, I think sometimes as farmers, some of the community are quick to sort of push against anyone that chooses to be vegetarian or vegan. At the end of day, it's people's choice. And it was. It was quite nice to hear his sort of well, well thought out, well reasoned argument of why he's chosen that. Yeah, it was a really refreshing podcast and I think it's. Yeah, it flowed really well, didn't it? [00:56:41] Speaker A: It was brilliant. And I think I also like the fact that he did impose his vegetarianism on his children. His children, you know, let them have a choice. His teenage, teenage boys, they can have a choice and they're choosing to eat meat, which I think is a really good thing. [00:56:57] Speaker C: And also I think the, the point Chris made there about sometimes us farmers getting quite, as livestock farmers, getting our backs up a bit. When we hear someone's vegetarian or vegan, we're going to remember that they're eating at the end of the day. So unless they're eating concrete, if they're eating something we can produce, then it's good for us anyway, because some of us do grow crops that people that don't eat meat buy. So, yeah, we can't complain, really. [00:57:32] Speaker D: I think as farmers, if we're going to criticize people for eating processed vegan food, then we've also got to be. We've got to accept people that eat good quality vegetarian food as well. Because it, like, at the end of day, it is a choice. [00:57:52] Speaker A: Definitely. Definitely. And I think obviously there's a bit of hiraming with the releasing of this podcast that hopefully we'll all be watching. England beat Holland this evening and hopefully it won't go to penalties. And obviously we did talk a lot about farming. But Chris, you're the sports fan, you had, as you quoted, one of the best conversations you've ever had with a sports journalist. So it's like your dream. Come to chatting to essentially, what is BBC's number one sports journalist in many years. So, do you want to talk about the football? Because you're the expert saying about penalties. [00:58:29] Speaker D: Neil, because those five penalties at the weekend were some of the best penalties I've ever seen. And for England to be going into a game not worried about going to penalties is quite miraculous. After all the years of her in penalty shootouts with Stuart Pearce and Chris Waddle and Saka and. Yeah, it's. And Southgate himself. Yeah. So, yeah, it's. Yeah, it hasn't been pretty. But look, whatever you say, positive or negative about Southgate, he gets us into the later round. So come on, boys, we're all behind you. Let's bring it home. [00:59:11] Speaker C: Yeah, definitely hope we don't go to penalties, even though we're good at them now. That was sickly watching that. My stomach was, oh, I couldn't do it. I don't want to be going through that again. [00:59:24] Speaker A: It's, uh. Yeah, I think we're quite accustomed to penalties, and I think you're right, Chris. I was, you know, just as a kid and growing up and all through my adult life, I think it's pretty much our penalties. You might as well just turn the tele off and go out because we're going to lose, basically. Whereas you're absolutely right on them on the weekend there. It was absolutely phenomenal. And Ivan Tony's no, look, penalty is just a thing of legende. [00:59:49] Speaker D: Yeah, but obviously on this podcast, we're trying to bring topical conversations. And really, when you think about it, I know this episode maybe wasn't as just focused on some of the issues in farming like many of the others, but the link between agriculture and farming is very strong. There's a lot of professional athletes who come from farming backgrounds and then go back to the. Go back to the farming business when they've finished playing sport. You look at Alistair Cook, Rory Best, to name just a few. It's a. Hopefully a lot of our listeners found it interesting and share the love of sport that we do as well. [01:00:35] Speaker A: Yeah, definitely. Cool. Well, don't forget to, like, follow us on social media. Subscribe to us on Spotify, spotty fun. Then subscribe to us also on Apple because we will be on Apple very soon, which is very exciting. So follow us there and subscribe and like, and follow us everywhere you can and we'll see you next time.